Is Slavery Wrong?

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;93367 wrote:

I told you the reference that provided the description of "slavery" I used. You decided to combat it, even though you knew and understood the description, in order to make the point that some words cannot be defined.

While you arrogantly showcase your superior understanding of grammar, you seem not to care much about good communication. If you did, you would have first explained your terminology, which deviates from the colloquial use of the aforementioned words, and then eludicated your position. Instead, you chose to criticize others for not having your extensive knowledge and never made an effort to reach common ground.

If you're wondering why some thoughts fail to be carried down through history, reading your posts may provide an answer.

The fact of the matter is, I have explained my terms, not only in written form but in audiobook form also, posted freely on the net, internet archive. I have stated that in some of the posts I have made. Secondly, it has been common practice that if someone has a desire to know something, they ask like a civilized human being instead of ranting and raving like a spoiled brat.

If you could learn to control yourself, you just might develope the ears to listen--I have spent thousands of hours promoting the free exchange of ideas on more than one site, thousands of hours devoted to providing free audio-books and ebooks, where is your contributions other than the rashness of untempered and arrogant words?

@prothero,

Just my point a few posts away this is academic dramatics not slavery.
When actual slave markets are in existance, complaining about slavish tax demands, is just a bit nauseating.

@prothero,

prothero;93457 wrote:

Listen guys, you are not slaves just because you have to obey laws and pay taxes. You can quit your job, you can emmigrate to another country (try finding one without laws or taxes). Slaves were chained, whipped, tracked with dogs if they tried to escape, bought and sold on the open market and had no choice about their form of labor, their lodgings or any other important aspect of their lives.
Is the type of slavery Lincoln referred to morally wrong?
If one does not believe in the divine what is your basis for transcendent value?
On what basis does one declare slavery wrong?
Almost everyone thinks it is wrong in the modern age but why?
De Facto slavery does still exist in the world.

When the taxes we pay are used against us, not to give us justice, but to deny us justice; and the laws we obey are not made to deliver justice to us, but to deny us justice, and the price of having our lives is to surrender the extent of all our time when it is so unnecessary because technology has put it into our hands to support ourselves in luxury with little effort and time, then we are surely slaves... The problem is, that we so love injustice even when we suffer it, and identify with the slavers, the exploiters, the thieves, and outlaws, and individuals that we may never hold freedom for more than an instant without letting it slip for a chance to abuse humanity... Freedom can only be defended with a group, as part of a group; but to know the individual life we give ourselves over to the attack against all the group defends, including freedom...The inidividual is a slave, or worse, a criminal... To have the impossible: Individual Freedom, people attack the last defense of freedom, and all for a fleeting feeling... The reality of the thing is destroyed to have the image...

---------- Post added 09-25-2009 at 08:03 AM ----------

xris;93470 wrote:

Just my point a few posts away this is academic dramatics not slavery.
When actual slave markets are in existance, complaining about slavish tax demands, is just a bit nauseating.

We are not better off than chattel slaves...Even the masters of this world are but one step removed from the other end of the lash, or the gun...And if we are so hopeless int he land of liberty, and if wage slavery has been used to remover us from all our wealth, and so, our political rights, then we are in no possition to demand freedom for all... The first exporters of revolution was non Lennin, but Jefferson...The Monroe doctrine was not designed to make Latin America our personal slave empire, but it bacame so for a buck by those who thought the whole constitution of the United States was written to expedite wealth accumulation... The difference between then, and now is this...Our constitution gave property specific protection because property paid the taxes... When the Income tax was first accepted by the people it was made to soak the rich; and it affected only 11 to 13% of the population...Now, people complain that the poorest 50% of the people do not pay taxes when they benefit from the country...What benefit??? Some sop is thrown to them for their vote, and they have no opportunity for good education, employment, housing, or even a decent diet...

Look at your history... When property was taxed, property was cheap, and the labor to make property profitable, and able to pay taxes was dear...With labor taxed, property is untaxed, so it becomes a bank of wealth that can be hoarded, and sat on useless for an investment... While this happens, inflated property is sold to people with depressed wages who must suffer extortionate interests for the price of money, and this interest is bleeding the whole people, and even the government which cannot subsist itself on taxes on continually depressed wages, and dare not tax the rich... History teaches that bankruptcy preceeds revolution... This people and the government are bankrupt...We cannot bear the price of war, or of empire, especially when the very people who must fight must pay their own wages, and buy their ammo...And we have lost the moral imperitive...We are no good, and damned near rotten...

@prothero,

NoOne wrote:

Secondly, it has been common practice that if someone has a desire to know something, they ask like a civilized human being instead of ranting and raving like a spoiled brat.

Is it? Then why didn't you follow this common practice instead of throwing this at me as your first comment:

[QUOTE]Zeth, I see you have no problem speaking on things you have absolutely no knowledge of, you are much to much the modern philosopher for me.[/QUOTE]
And then continue ridiculing me with comments like this:

Quote:

When you learn the foundation of language, perhaps you will come to understand the difference, you words indicate that you do not.

Why didn't you ask me what I meant like a civilized human being? If you're going to communicate with people like this, you're not going to have many willing to be enlightened, let alone listen.

[QUOTE]If you could learn to control yourself, you just might develope the ears to listen--I have spent thousands of hours promoting the free exchange of ideas on more than one site, thousands of hours devoted to providing free audio-books and ebooks, where is your contributions [/QUOTE]
You can't expect people to read your e-books and audio-books before typing to you on an online forum. If you cannot articulate your thoughts considering common ground, or get over the fact that people might not be knowledgable in the things you are, this may not be the best place for you. I'm thrilled you have the ardasity to call me arrogant after typing this, but that's not going to help this communication. Your contributions mean nothing if you do not have the will, and patience, to communicate with others tempered with consideration.

That said, I think I'm aware of the point you were making regarding definition and description. It's a good one, but you mustn't cast aside or criticize others simply because they don't use or understand your terminology, or have a different way of articulating their thoughts.

I hope we can both be considerate of one another in the future. Be well.

@Zetherin,

I cant imagine the suffering a black slave had to endure and the loss of his community for so many to be taken. BUT I can imagine his reaction to the white mans moans about excessive taxes being such burden and then to relate his and their suffering as some how relativ

@Zetherin,

"your terminology" You praise me too highly. I blush. Silly me, stupidly of course, knows very well that names are conventional, or language is not possible. Only to within the limits of that convention can communication ever exist. :brickwall:

@NoOne phil,

NoOne;93488 wrote:

"your terminology" You praise me too highly. I blush. Silly me, stupidly of course, knows very well that names are conventional, or language is not possible. Only to within the limits of that convention can communication ever exist. :brickwall:

That's right. And as another member of this forum once said:

nerdfiles wrote:

Alas, the limit of my language is the limit of my friends.

I hope you'll choose to make more friends.

@Zetherin,

I only hope to "make" a friend if it is an intelligent young female with a desire to help save man from himself while adding to the population crisis. j.c.

@Fido,

Fido;93475 wrote:

When the taxes we pay are used against us, not to give us justice, but to deny us justice; and the laws we obey are not made to deliver justice to us, but to deny us justice, and the price of having our lives is to surrender the extent of all our time when it is so unnecessary because technology has put it into our hands to support ourselves in luxury with little effort and time, then we are surely slaves...

You get one vote. So does everyone else. You may call it slavery, but that's what people have chosen.

Fido;93475 wrote:

We are not better off than chattel slaves...

Would you like a brief list of reasons why we are better off?

Like, for instance, you're able to be a philosophical dilettante and whittle away time on the computer at your leisure, all the while complaining about the inequities and injustices of your government. On the other hand, a slave would be forced to work in the fields, have no pay, not be allowed to own anything, not be allowed to marry, not be allowed to keep any children he/she produced, and be beaten (or killed) for questioning authority.

Sorry you have it so hard, Fido, my heart cries you a river.

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;93496 wrote:

I hope you'll choose to make more friends.

If I might offer, how do you "make a friend"? Does that mean you are trying to mold them into something they are not that will fit on your mantle. I am of the notion that a friend will come of their own accord as they see in you what is right in them. You can't make them be your friend for to that, in itself, would enslave them to your freindship. Just a thought. Sorry, I have not read all the posts as I have been away for a while, it's just your post caught my eye. Smile

William

@William,

William;93523 wrote:

If I might offer, how do you "make a friend"? Does that mean you are trying to mold them into something they are not that will fit on your mantle. I am of the notion that a friend will come of their own accord as they see in you what is right in them. You can't make them be your friend for to that, in itself, would enslave them to your freindship. Just a thought. Sorry, I have not read all the posts as I have been away for a while, it's just your post caught my eye.

William

Thanks for the response, and I agree with your sentiments.

I was using the term "friend" laxly here, simply as a synonym for one who values communication and attempts to reach common ground during discussion in a respectful manner. I should have been more clear.

So, what I meant was that, the limit of his ability to articulate his thoughts in a manner which others can understand (and want to understand, meaning without the elitist attitude) will be the limit of those who are willing to listen. If he chose to not belittle people during discussion, he would find more people who would be willing to listen and potentially even be enlightened.

@William,

William;93523 wrote:

If I might offer, how do you "make a friend"? Does that mean you are trying to mold them into something they are not that will fit on your mantle. I am of the notion that a friend will come of their own accord as they see in you what is right in them. You can't make them be your friend for to that, in itself, would enslave them to your freindship. Just a thought. Sorry, I have not read all the posts as I have been away for a while, it's just your post caught my eye.

William

Actually, I disagree. If one wears a mask to "make a friend" then they are still only friends to the mask. One has not made a friend at all, but sometimes a tollerably good . . . darn need to fix a machine.

@Aedes,

Aedes;93507 wrote:

You get one vote. So does everyone else. You may call it slavery, but that's what people have chosen.

Would you like a brief list of reasons why we are better off?

Like, for instance, you're able to be a philosophical dilettante and whittle away time on the computer at your leisure, all the while complaining about the inequities and injustices of your government. On the other hand, a slave would be forced to work in the fields, have no pay, not be allowed to own anything, not be allowed to marry, not be allowed to keep any children he/she produced, and be beaten (or killed) for questioning authority.

Sorry you have it so hard, Fido, my heart cries you a river.

Oh; Come on....You either rate your rights too highly or rate those of a slave to low...Consider, that there were slave who worked their way to freedom... Even in Rome the state had to tax owners for the slaves they freed, and made eligable for the corn dole, a sort of slave retirement for the non productive... Do you really believe that those people did not lament their fate, or the condition of their lives only because they did not have computers??? The crime is that so much later in time we are still giving luck or fate or faith the credit for our success and failure in life... We have no more authority in our own affairs than the common slave, and our existence is no more secure...Like them we go from day to day wishing our lives away until we wake up one day and find they are all gone...I wish tomorrow would get here...I wish payday some haste...I wish quiting time would hurry, I wish I wasn't so late...I wish the boss would climb out of my ass and treat me like I have so class...I wish my life were not harried and harassed from end to end...Oh...Ya; we are free...

@Fido,

Do you rise at dawn knowing your daughter was raped by the overseer last night and your son was flogged to death for daring to look at his masters wife. Will you work all day in field of cotton , in temperatures that would kill a white man. You will see the weak die of the ardour and if you survive past thirty you body will be destroyed by the starvation diet and the constant labour. If you attempt to leave they will whip you and then hang you. Now what was you saying about your conditions?

@Fido,

Fido;93579 wrote:

I wish the boss would climb out of my ass and treat me like I have so class...I wish my life were not harried and harassed from end to end...Oh...Ya; we are free...

Again -- cry me a river. My grandfather was on a death march and was forced at gunpoint to stack and burn bodies. But you have a mean boss, oh the humanity.

@Aedes,

Aedes;93610 wrote:

Again -- cry me a river. My grandfather was on a death march and was forced at gunpoint to stack and burn bodies. But you have a mean boss, oh the humanity.

Funny, I read this a minute and a half ago and you said it a little differently. You must have edited it because I came back to find you changed it.

So are you saying, no one is allowed to say anything unless they have been on a death march?

@Krumple,

Krumple;93613 wrote:

So are you saying, no one is allowed to say anything unless they have been on a death march?

Did I say that?

No.

Respond to what I actually said or don't respond at all.

@NoOne phil,

I know I said this in the early parts of this string but it deserves repeating.

No one here that I know of condones slavery or even has a neutral opinion of it. While I agree that slavery is wrong, it is not immoral to discuss it in the abstract or use it as a metynomical or metaphorical reference to aspects of one's existence. However, using inflated and and often misleading semantic arguments and statistics to emotionalize a legitimate topic is simply derailing the topic at hand.

@GoshisDead,

It has to be put into some kind of perspective, I'm a slave to the rhythm, is it relevant?

@prothero,

It is also derailing to synonymize the trials of daily living with the torture and brutalization of forced laborers.

If you insist on using the same word to describe it, you at least need to recognize the obvious qualitative difference between the two.

I'd sure rather be in Fido's miserable slave state than be in the Gulag.

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