Is there a moral argument for lying?

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kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 12:59 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;109751 wrote:
Sure, an argument can include terms such as "wrong." But that isn't doing much to determine what is wrong. Morals are a zone where emotion is very much involved. We argue/persuade because of such emotion.


So what did you mean when you said that you did not see how a moral argument could be logical?
 
Kroni
 
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 03:05 am
@Kroni,
I think he's saying that "right" and "wrong" are broad terms that need to be associated with something in order to have meaning. Generally, if something is harmful to another it is considered "wrong", and if it promotes happiness it is considered "right". These are just semantics, we all know what someone means when they say right or wrong. I believe the confusion comes from this idea that there is some absolute truth where behavior is inherently correct or incorrect regardless of the circumstances. If you believe this, as many people do, it is indeed difficult to define right or wrong. We define right and wrong by the consequences of our actions, but if there is a right and wrong regardless of consequence, we have no means of explaining why.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 08:28 am
@Kroni,
Kroni;109759 wrote:
I think he's saying that "right" and "wrong" are broad terms that need to be associated with something in order to have meaning. Generally, if something is harmful to another it is considered "wrong", and if it promotes happiness it is considered "right". These are just semantics, we all know what someone means when they say right or wrong. I believe the confusion comes from this idea that there is some absolute truth where behavior is inherently correct or incorrect regardless of the circumstances. If you believe this, as many people do, it is indeed difficult to define right or wrong. We define right and wrong by the consequences of our actions, but if there is a right and wrong regardless of consequence, we have no means of explaining why.



How would that mean that moral arguments are not logical?
 
Kroni
 
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 08:54 am
@kennethamy,
I just explained, if you believe that something is "wrong" just because it is "wrong", then you are not using logic. If someone believes that there is an absolute right or wrong, such as whether you should lie, then consequences are irrelevant. Therefore, they are just following rules without any logical reasoning behind them.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that this is how I believe, merely that this viewpoint towards morality offers serious logical flaws.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 09:08 am
@Kroni,
Kroni;109806 wrote:
I just explained, if you believe that something is "wrong" just because it is "wrong", then you are not using logic. If someone believes that there is an absolute right or wrong, such as whether you should lie, then consequences are irrelevant. Therefore, they are just following rules without any logical reasoning behind them.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that this is how I believe, merely that this viewpoint towards morality offers serious logical flaws.



Philosophers (like Kant) who believe that an action is right or wrong regardless of the consequences at the time, are not saying that something is wrong (or right) just because it is wrong or right. Kant spent a lot of time and energy arguing for the notion that whether an action is morally right of wrong does not depend on the consequences of that particular action, at that particular time. Although argued, at the same time, that whether a kind of action is right or wrong, does depend on consequences. You seem to be confusing the consequences of a particular action with the consequences of a type of action. Kant held that when the consequences of a particular kind of action are wrong, then it would be wrong to perform a particular case (token) of that action. Thus, he held, for example, that if the consequences of lying in general were bad, then a particular case of lying cannot be right.

Kant might have been wrong about this. But why was he not logical?
 
Kroni
 
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 09:29 am
@kennethamy,
I still think he is creating a logical fallacy. Just because something is wrong in one circumstances it does not make it wrong in a completely unrelated circumstance. It's similar to the fallacy of not agreeing with an opinion simply because of who you heard it from. If you do not like Peter Singer because he allegedly eats meat and therefore you decide you shouldn't be a vegetarian, you are coming up with a conclusion that does not follow the premise.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 09:57 am
@Kroni,
Kroni;109820 wrote:
I still think he is creating a logical fallacy. Just because something is wrong in one circumstances it does not make it wrong in a completely unrelated circumstance. It's similar to the fallacy of not agreeing with an opinion simply because of who you heard it from. If you do not like Peter Singer because he allegedly eats meat and therefore you decide you shouldn't be a vegetarian, you are coming up with a conclusion that does not follow the premise.


What Kant argued was that if everyone (say) lied when he thought the consequences of lying on that occasion were good, then he would be saying that everyone should lie when they thought the consequences were appropriate. Why, after all, Kant asked, would it be all right for you to lie when you thought it would be a good thing, and not for others? But, then, suppose that everyone could decide on their own, on any occasion, whether to lie or not? What would be the consequences of that? No one would be able to trust anyone to be truthful, because how could anyone know that the speaker had not decided that on this occasion, it would be all right for him to lie. The institution of people trusting others would simply break down. What would this mean for society?

So, you see: 1. Kant did not argue that something is wrong because it is wrong. and, 2. He did certainly take consequences into account.

Of course, you may disagree with Kant about this. But would you disagree with him because he was not logical, or just because you thought he was wrong? There is a difference?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 04:03 pm
@Kroni,
Morality is dependent, I think upon values. Does logic generate value? I strongly doubt it. We use words to get what we want and avoid what we don't want. We want safety and order. We have unwritten "laws" and written laws. Sometimes the unwritten "laws" are more important. Have juries not been forgiving of murderers who were victims?

Logic is useful as an element of persuasion (rhetoric) in a court room. Logic might be used by a con-man to commit some crime in the first place.

But morals are founded on values, or so it seems to me at the moment.
 
Kroni
 
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 11:44 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;109824 wrote:
What Kant argued was that if everyone (say) lied when he thought the consequences of lying on that occasion were good, then he would be saying that everyone should lie when they thought the consequences were appropriate. Why, after all, Kant asked, would it be all right for you to lie when you thought it would be a good thing, and not for others? But, then, suppose that everyone could decide on their own, on any occasion, whether to lie or not? What would be the consequences of that? No one would be able to trust anyone to be truthful, because how could anyone know that the speaker had not decided that on this occasion, it would be all right for him to lie. The institution of people trusting others would simply break down. What would this mean for society?

So, you see: 1. Kant did not argue that something is wrong because it is wrong. and, 2. He did certainly take consequences into account.

Of course, you may disagree with Kant about this. But would you disagree with him because he was not logical, or just because you thought he was wrong? There is a difference?


I disagree with him because he was not logical, and here's why...
This discussion is not about what someone thinks is right or wrong, it is about whether or not a lie can ever be right in any situation. Let's do an example. Mary decides to lie to John by telling him that her baby is his in order to collect child support. She has justified this in someway to herself, and in her opinion it is the right thing to do. But in reality, it is hurting John financially and emotionally. This lie is clearly not providing a beneficial moral outcome. But let's say Mary decides to lie to John by telling him there is no baby because he is a baby-killing lunatic who would snap its neck if he was aware of its existence. She has also justified this to herself, but this time the outcome does have a beneficial moral consequence. In both cases she has perceived a right and wrong, but in only one is she correct. Whether or not people will abuse the justification of lying is irrelevent, because it does not change the fact that a lie is or is not harmful. Kant is using a slippery slope arguement to try and justify his position.
Kant is basically saying that lying is always wrong because someone may use the fact that it is sometimes right to justify it when it is wrong. This is hypocritical and paradoxical, and absent of logic.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 05:02 pm
@Kroni,
Kroni;111539 wrote:
I disagree with him because he was not logical, and here's why...
This discussion is not about what someone thinks is right or wrong, it is about whether or not a lie can ever be right in any situation. Let's do an example. Mary decides to lie to John by telling him that her baby is his in order to collect child support. She has justified this in someway to herself, and in her opinion it is the right thing to do. But in reality, it is hurting John financially and emotionally. This lie is clearly not providing a beneficial moral outcome. But let's say Mary decides to lie to John by telling him there is no baby because he is a baby-killing lunatic who would snap its neck if he was aware of its existence. She has also justified this to herself, but this time the outcome does have a beneficial moral consequence. In both cases she has perceived a right and wrong, but in only one is she correct. Whether or not people will abuse the justification of lying is irrelevent, because it does not change the fact that a lie is or is not harmful. Kant is using a slippery slope arguement to try and justify his position.
Kant is basically saying that lying is always wrong because someone may use the fact that it is sometimes right to justify it when it is wrong. This is hypocritical and paradoxical, and absent of logic.


No. Kant is arguing that the effects of lying in a particular case because of the consequences does not compensate for the fact that if everyone lied because of the consequences, after a while, not one would believe anyone when they told the truth. In other words, if you universalized your action, then the effects would be disasterous. Therefore, you should not do that action. For, if it is wrong for everyone to do that action, it is wrong for you to do that action. That is not illogical.
 
Ichthus91
 
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 06:39 pm
@Kroni,
I think lying [or even the intent to lie] is an absolute moral wrong regardless of reasons. For example, if you lie to a potential wrongdoer in order to prevent an evil act; you have just taken away the wrongdoers ability to make the right moral choice. That is stealing which is also an absolute moral wrong.
 
 

 
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