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My View on Morality and Values

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I apologize if this subject has already been discussed and if so then just mention it and I'll delete it. Anywho, I have realized that many people have perhaps forgotten the purpose of values and the reason people originally created morality and things like it. Morality and values are essential to society, however, the only things that should fall under morality and values are things that are essential to societies survival. For instance drinking alcohol is not in this sense immoral because it does not interfere with societies normal process. Doing drugs... Maybe once you get into the hard drugs such as cocaine and meth then yes but when it comes to things like Marijuana and other 'soft' drugs then its really not all that vital to society to keep people from doing it... Hell if it were then we'd be long gone.

When you look at morality this way it opens up a new view on many things. Even abortion... Alot of people consider abortion murder, however the concept of murder was devised in order to prevent people from killing members of their society... Why? Because it disrupts society! But abortion doesn't exactly disrupt society... Not in my opinion... Is it ethical? That's a different thread.

Anywho leave your thoughts on my thoughts and I'll think about your thoughts and post some thoughts... On those thoughts :a-ok:

@Ares phil,

Ares;77646 wrote:

Morality and values are essential to society, however, the only things that should fall under morality and values are things that are essential to societies survival. F

Hi there Ares,

I agree that morality steps from the idea that society creates them in order to function (e.g. survive). Can you give me an idea of what you would consider an essential morality or value?

Thanks for opening up the discussion.

Rich

@Ares phil,

For me Ares its the values that drive morals.If its a dogmatic faith driven blinkered morality then in my opinion it has no value.Take abortion if by dogmatic demand someone tells me GOD says,i could not care less.If someone has considered abortion and finds it unacceptable then i can appreciate their view as long as they dont judge others.
Morality is choice,values should judged.I hope that made sense,xris

@richrf,

richrf;77649 wrote:

Hi there Ares,

I agree that morality steps from the idea that society creates them in order to function (e.g. survive). Can you give me an idea of what you would consider and essential morality or value?

Thanks for opening up the discussion.

Rich

Murder, theivery perhaps, the basic ones. I actually can't tend to think of anything past murder and theivery right off the back of my head but I'm off for lunch now if I think of one I'll post it when I get back.

@Ares phil,

The "reason people originally created morality" is a historical question, not a philosophical one. Do you have any historical evidence to support your claim that morality was created to perpetuate the "survival" of "societies"?

@Ares phil,

Ares;77662 wrote:

Murder, theivery perhaps, the basic ones. I actually can't tend to think of anything past murder and theivery right off the back of my head but I'm off for lunch now if I think of one I'll post it when I get back.

Hi,

Thanks for giving the discussion a place to start from. Let's look at these two essential values.

1) Murder. Apparently, most societies are somewhat two sided on this issue. Yes, murder, to kill intentionally with premeditation, is considered unlawful. Though, in some societies, it may be condoned under certain circumstances (e.g. revenge). There are have been reports in some countries of this being acceptable.

Yet, beyond this, certain countries have allowed murder as a matter of social cleansing. Or as a way of conquering more land. So, I think that the clear bright line may not exist on this issue, since people seem to cross the line as a matter of social convenience. For example, when the U.S. decided to attack Iraq, with premeditation and with the objective to kill innocent people who never attacked the U.S., would this be considered murder?

2) Thievery. Yes, taking some material goods from someone else in an unlawful manner is considered unacceptable. But the law is the question. For example, when Wall Street financial institutions figure out how to take money in a lawful manner by finding loopholes in laws (which are always full of loopholes) from unsuspecting people, is this thievery, or is it shrewd greed. How do we make laws that protect people from fine print?

And when the people of one country annexes property from another country for so-called defensive purposes, this seems to be OK for the people in the annexing country, though maybe not so OK for the people who are losing their land.

It seems that there are gray areas in everything that we call morality and values. What do you think? Is there an absolute morality and value that holds for everyone in every situation?

Rich

@Theages,

Theages;77664 wrote:

The "reason people originally created morality" is a historical question, not a philosophical one. Do you have any historical evidence to support your claim that morality was created to perpetuate the "survival" of "societies"?

Well I apologize for my obvious intrusion and insult to the ethics forum, how very unethical of me. Sheesh don't burst an artery. Allow me to rephrase, morality was an idea devised to 'perpetuate' the success of society. Regardless of what you believe, hell I'm an anarchist, you do need a basis of conduct. If you don't have that then all you can do is live as a wild animal and... People have tried that, they died.

@Ares phil,

Ares;77677 wrote:

morality was an idea devised to 'perpetuate' the success of society

I'll ask you again: do you have any historical evidence to support this claim?

@Theages,

Theages;77683 wrote:

I'll ask you again: do you have any historical evidence to support this claim?

The very definition of society supports it!

Quote:

Dictionary.com
an organized group of persons associated together for religious, benevolent, cultural, scientific, political, patriotic, or other purposes.

And in order to be organized you must have a common ideal and a common bond which holds you together. Something to keep the order, whether it be religion or just simple values.

@Ares phil,

The "definition" you cited is not historical evidence. I'm asking for evidence showing that morality was "originally created" (assuming that it was in fact "created", an assumption I don't think much of) with an eye towards "the success of society" and not with some other motive.

@Theages,

Theages;77686 wrote:

The "definition" you cited is not historical evidence. I'm asking for evidence showing that morality was "originally created" (assuming that it was in fact "created", an assumption I don't think much of) with an eye towards "the success of society" and not with some other motive.

Well offer a counter argument wont you? If you are so dead set on the fact morality wasn't 'created' by man. Here's some historical evidence, Prior to 10,000 years ago we have barely any records that I know of for law, morality, etc. Prior to 10,000 years ago, we have tons of records of human life. So obviously, aliens didn't just come down and give us morals. Perhaps it was god, but the object of my post is not to refute that.

@Ares phil,

Is that an admission that you have no evidence for your claim about motivation?

@Theages,

Theages;77689 wrote:

Is that an admission that you have no evidence for your claim about motivation?

Well, what is you're claim?

@Ares phil,

I don't need to make a claim for yours to be ill-founded.

@Theages,

Theages;77693 wrote:

I don't need to make a claim for yours to be ill-founded.

Actually, NoAngst, you do need to counter your negations with proportionate posits, else you'll drag down this forum, and we'll ban you.

@Theages,

Theages;77693 wrote:

I don't need to make a claim for yours to be ill-founded.

Boy you're a piece of work =/

My points were:

1] People created morality for the betterment of society
2] Morality and Values are essential to a society's success
3] Only ESSENTIAL morals and essential values are required for any one society to succeed
a) Murder
b) Theivery
c) ETC.
4] Essential morals and values prohibit things that disrupt the natural function of a society

My main point was never even about people creating morality! My main point which you overlooked, amazingly, was that the essential morals and values such as murder and theivery are required for a societies peace.

@ValueRanger,

ValueRanger;77695 wrote:

Actually, NoAngst, you do need to counter your negations with proportionate posits, else you'll drag down this forum, and we'll ban you.

Asking for evidence is a "negation"? Calling people out on the fairy-tales they concoct is ban-worthy?

@Ares phil,

Ares;77684 wrote:

And in order to be organized you must have a common ideal and a common bond which holds you together. Something to keep the order, whether it be religion or just simple values.

Hi,

I don't think you need to provide evidence to anyone. No one knows where the concept of morality emanated from. Maybe from the Universal Consciousness of Jung's.

In any case, I tend to agree with you. But these are just thoughts to be discussed. I am sure there are disagreements.

Rich

@Theages,

Theages;77700 wrote:

Asking for evidence is a "negation"? Calling people out on the fairy-tales they concoct is ban-worthy?

Your reluctance to offer a counter argument only shows you don't have one =/

@Theages,

Theages;77693 wrote:

I don't need to make a claim for yours to be ill-founded.

Hi,

If you are just the roving detective, asking for evidence, then thanks. Mission accomplished. We'll look for some for you. OK?

Rich

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