My problem with ultilitarianism

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Yogi DMT
 
Reply Thu 14 May, 2009 06:12 pm
@hue-man,
My take on this is simple, i think it's a fairly basic question. I would try and save everyone obviosuly, but if there is no way out, no loop holes, and possibly no other solution, i would try and save the most amount of people possible even if that meant that 1 person had to go, that was the best way to go about this scenario. Yes i might feel guilty and sad for that one person but in the end if three people were falling off the cliff and i could only save two, im going to save two.
 
hue-man
 
Reply Thu 14 May, 2009 07:37 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Yogi DMT wrote:
My take on this is simple, i think it's a fairly basic question. I would try and save everyone obviosuly, but if there is no way out, no loop holes, and possibly no other solution, i would try and save the most amount of people possible even if that meant that 1 person had to go, that was the best way to go about this scenario. Yes i might feel guilty and sad for that one person but in the end if three people were falling off the cliff and i could only save two, im going to save two.


You don't understand the dilemma. It's not the same as saving two out of three people from falling off a cliff. The train track example deals with directly causing the death of one to person in order to save five people. If you pull the lever so that it hits one person instead of five, then you have effectively killed one innocent person.
 
Yogi DMT
 
Reply Thu 14 May, 2009 07:44 pm
@hue-man,
You have not killed an innocent person but you haved saved five, think of it that. You could choose to do nothing which would still be an innocent act, yes a very wrong act but still nothing you could technically get in trouble with the man for. You are not required to save anyone and by choosing to save 5 people you are in essence not only saving people but also saving 5 people as opposed to one. This is a tough situation and i don't think your valuing one life more or less than another but you are doing what must be done.
 
hue-man
 
Reply Thu 14 May, 2009 08:31 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Yogi DMT wrote:
You have not killed an innocent person but you haved saved five, think of it that. You could choose to do nothing which would still be an innocent act, yes a very wrong act but still nothing you could technically get in trouble with the man for. You are not required to save anyone and by choosing to save 5 people you are in essence not only saving people but also saving 5 people as opposed to one. This is a tough situation and i don't think your valuing one life more or less than another but you are doing what must be done.


Yes you have killed an innocent person. You are effectively and intentionally causing the death of that one person when you pull the lever. It is not a wrong act to do nothing if you can't save them all. It is impartial inaction, because you don't want to kill one innocent person to save five. It is not what must be done. That is a profound overstatement.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Thu 14 May, 2009 08:51 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;61054 wrote:
Utilitarianism doesn't allow any room for the recognition of the human value of family or friendship in this type of a situation.

What do you guys think?
Well, from the perspective of psychology most would recognize that in our mind's calculus 1) we cannot predict most outcomes and 2) not all relationships are equal in value. The utilitarian argument (or any other) can only hold in which certain variables are constant, i.e. 10000 humans we don't know has greater value than 1 human we don't know, and given a choice with a 100% predictable outcome we should choose the outcome that would benefit the 10000 over the 1.

It's not a perfect moral philosophy. But you have to ask yourself about the alternative. The problem with deontology is that ANY principle can be made to look patently ridiculous if exposed to an extreme enough variant. Like the argument that aborting any gestation following the moment of conception is murder -- pretty ludicrous if you consider chemotherapy to treat a metastatic choriocarcinoma is murder.
 
Yogi DMT
 
Reply Thu 14 May, 2009 09:04 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote:
Yes you have killed an innocent person. You are effectively and intentionally causing the death of that one person when you pull the lever. It is not a wrong act to do nothing if you can't save them all. It is impartial inaction, because you don't want to kill one innocent person to save five. It is not what must be done. That is a profound overstatement.


You are not required to save anybody. If i didn't save someone i would not be directly nor indirectly killing them. I'm just saying that by saving 5 people that didn't have to be saved from the start, that is the best possibility considering it's either save 5 or 1. Five people or one person dies, its a two sided question, one side has a far better outcome, i'll take it. Yes there would be an innocent life lost but not at my hands only at the hands of those who put that person(s) in this scenario to begin with. And neither am i one to put a value on a life.
 
Ultracrepidarian
 
Reply Thu 14 May, 2009 11:56 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Yeah, no blood will be on my hands. This is so absurd, but imagine that the one person is a 1yr old infant and has an identical twin on side B, plus 4 other people. The fact that the lever is "naturally" in the "B position" - meaning the train goes to side B - doesn't mean anything to me, because the position of the lever is not natural at all. That is what I understand from the thought experiment. We cannot conceive of a reason why the lever should be set for A or B. All other things being equal, would we rather see 5 people die or 1? I value each individual's life and five heads are better than one.

It is more interesting to imagine two elderly souls on side B and one teenager on side A. Soon, you have to make some sort of formula to handle all possible situations with age differences. Then throw in gender. And how nice of people they are?

But who cares? Emergency rescue professionals, soldiers, and officers in war. That formula will not be applicable to non-emergency situations and morality should be concerned with life qua life - not life qua emergency situation. That is my assertion. Please disagree if you like.
 
hue-man
 
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 09:34 am
@Yogi DMT,
Yogi DMT wrote:
You are not required to save anybody. If i didn't save someone i would not be directly nor indirectly killing them. I'm just saying that by saving 5 people that didn't have to be saved from the start, that is the best possibility considering it's either save 5 or 1. Five people or one person dies, its a two sided question, one side has a far better outcome, i'll take it. Yes there would be an innocent life lost but not at my hands only at the hands of those who put that person(s) in this scenario to begin with. And neither am i one to put a value on a life.


It is true that you are not morally responsible or to blame for the incident, but that's not the point I'm making. You feel obligated to save an innocent person's life if you can, and especially if it doesn't threaten your own life. The track scenario is a dilemma because it involves killing one person to save five. The track scenario goes like this:

Five people are tied up to on one side of a train track, and one person is tied up on the other side. A train is coming and it is heading for the track with the five people. If you do nothing and allow the train to go on its original course, it will hit the five people and the one person will stay alive. However, you can pull a lever that will shift the train's path so that it hits the one person instead. If you pull the lever you are causing the death of that innocent person, and that person wasn't going to be killed until you got involved and pulled the lever. Pulling the lever is an action that causes a death that wouldn't have occurred otherwise. You have killed that person to save five. Do you understand?

---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 AM ----------

Ultracrepidarian wrote:
Yeah, no blood will be on my hands. This is so absurd, but imagine that the one person is a 1yr old infant and has an identical twin on side B, plus 4 other people. The fact that the lever is "naturally" in the "B position" - meaning the train goes to side B - doesn't mean anything to me, because the position of the lever is not natural at all. That is what I understand from the thought experiment. We cannot conceive of a reason why the lever should be set for A or B. All other things being equal, would we rather see 5 people die or 1? I value each individual's life and five heads are better than one.

It is more interesting to imagine two elderly souls on side B and one teenager on side A. Soon, you have to make some sort of formula to handle all possible situations with age differences. Then throw in gender. And how nice of people they are?

But who cares? Emergency rescue professionals, soldiers, and officers in war. That formula will not be applicable to non-emergency situations and morality should be concerned with life qua life - not life qua emergency situation. That is my assertion. Please disagree if you like.


I think I agree with you. Gender shouldn't matter at all, but whether or not you know the people are innocent is a whole different deal. For example, if Hitler was the one person, I would kill him. Why? Because Hitler is not relevantly similar to the innocent people on the other side of the track. He is a mass murdering, sociopathic dictator that wants to dominate the world. If expert emergency people were involved they would try and save all of them assuming they were innocent people, and they would try until the train hits. I've heard enough scenarios where I know they wouldn't have killed the one person by pulling the lever.

This should throw you for a loop. What if the five people on the track are all bad people, and by bad people I mean people who intentionally cause the pain and suffering of other people? What if you didn't know this and you saved them instead of saving the one person who was kind and decent? That one person would cause more happiness and the five people would cause nothing but suffering, but you didn't know that when you pulled the lever. You see the problem with utilitarianism?
 
Aedes
 
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 10:04 am
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote:
This should throw you for a loop. What if the five people on the track are all bad people, and by bad people I mean people who intentionally cause the pain and suffering of other people? What if you didn't know this and you saved them instead of saving the one person who was kind and decent? That one person would cause more happiness and the five people would cause nothing but suffering, but you didn't know that when you pulled the lever. You see the problem with utilitarianism?
It shouldn't throw anyone for a loop if you take a minute to think about the counterargument. If instead of utilitarianism you argue for its opposite, deontology, then you are promoting the principle that it's better to allow the death of 5 bad people than one good person. And that leads to an even bigger nightmare of deciding who is good and who is bad by any logical measure as if that can ever be known to begin with.

Do you watch Lost? Remember the recent episode in which Sayid tries to kill Ben when he was a boy, but Kate tries to save him on the grounds that he isn't that bad person yet?
 
hue-man
 
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 10:25 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
It shouldn't throw anyone for a loop if you take a minute to think about the counterargument. If instead of utilitarianism you argue for its opposite, deontology, then you are promoting the principle that it's better to allow the death of 5 bad people than one good person. And that leads to an even bigger nightmare of deciding who is good and who is bad by any logical measure as if that can ever be known to begin with.

Do you watch Lost? Remember the recent episode in which Sayid tries to kill Ben when he was a boy, but Kate tries to save him on the grounds that he isn't that bad person yet?


I rarely think about deontology because it usually relies on the fallacy of moral naturalism or realism. I'm not in favor of utilitarianism, either. It seems that all of the normative theories are being used in applied ethics these days.

I don't watch lost, but what's your point?
 
Aedes
 
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 11:46 am
@hue-man,
Point is that you can go wipe out 12 year old Adolf Hitler in 1901 or whenever, but you can't do it knowing that he'll go down in history as one of the most vile mass murderers of all time. Or you can go back and wipe him out in 1933, the year he came to power, but you can't do it knowing that things will be better as a result, since the Nazis were already armed by then and there were plenty of hardline idealogues other than Hitler in the party.

If not utilitarianism or deontology, then what? I think that social norms and morals are a kind of marriage between our personal / psychological moral sense and the "conforming" effect that a society imposes on us. We then back-rationalize it into a philosophical or religious system, but none of them is entirely honest with 1) what we truly know, or 2) how we truly think.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 12:10 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
Does utilitarianism only work in the most artificial and oversimplified circumstances? Mill takes care to address the objection that his utilitarian calculations do not make the philosophy impractical. Essentially, he argues that he is only setting forth the measure by which to judge actions, not the precise process by which to make an action. He says that it would be absurd to make utilitarian calculations in the face of every moral question, and that instead, people will draw on their experiences to make the decision.

Essentially, utilitarianism is the way to evaluate decisions, not the way to make them. Just as the process of evaluating music is remarkably different from the process of creating music.

But can't you see the vast irony and contradiction of this! Utilitarianism tells us that utility is the most important factor in morality, and yet you tell me that Utlitarianism lacks utility. For what is utility if it is not practicial?
 
 

 
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