How does anyone know whats right(Aka:what is the good)

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midas77
 
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2008 07:57 am
@de Silentio,
de Silentio wrote:
I may be missing something, but should we always equat what is right with what is good?

We act according to what we consider good. It is in this sense that in terms of human action what is right is always equated with what is good.
 
Pancho the Great
 
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 06:50 pm
@Pancho the Great,
Pancho the Great wrote:
Well I percieve good and evil as not even existing, sorry if I do sound nihilist, but its how I trully feel. I belive what Thomas Hobbes said, good and evil are simply desires and aversions, on a universal standpoint everything is pretty much neutral, we place importance on our own lives. So there are no definite boarders on evil and good, it simply depends on the person's desires and aversions. Some people belive in killing certain people while other's don't, that is why ethics are so ranged around the world. Also because of religion but that is more obvious than desires and aversions.

So just live your life with the least of your aversions, nothing is right or wrong, good or bad, who cares about the whole of society as long as I'm happy. Cuz if you belive in the good of the whole then that means your Utilitarian butt has to follow all the rules that come with it. I enjoy my freedom, not the false sense of freedom like the United States provides, I'm talking real freedom, and in order to be so free you must break some of the rules. But all those rules are unethical to break? I beg to differ, all can be broken at the benifit of gaining the freedom once promised. Untill then the whole can deal with my lack of contribution. This is where I start to sound Nihilist,and Existentialist, Egoist, Skeptic McWierd.
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 02:05 am
@Pancho the Great,
What is this freedom you have? You are free to act within the constraints of the physical universe if you do not believe in determinism, however, there are two sides of freedom. There is the freedom to act, and there is the freedom from action, and you cannot have both. You can be free of worry, but then you are not free to act and vice versus, which side do you feel is to be of greater emphasis? All end up choosing some balance, for the urge to self preservation is not something which is easily overcome. You can choose to live any way you choose..within parameters. You cannot have absolute freedom, some would contest, even in your own mind, for your mind does have contrictions.
 
Pancho the Great
 
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 01:21 pm
@Zetetic11235,
I know what you are saying is true that I am only as free as a human can be without breaking rules of the physical world, such as gravity, which I will never be free from but, that is not what I meant at all. I realize I will always be a slave to the physical world, but it is necessary for existence, I was simply talking about being as free as a human can be in this world of boundaries. I'm more concerned with other people trying to obliterate my freedom within the boundaries of the physical world. Like when they say I can't smoke marijuana, or tell me I can't be naked, or tell me I can't hitch hike... you know, all things possible in the physical world but that people have restrained themselves from doing because of some law, that's what makes me seek freedom. And though seeking some of my freedoms may be unethical to most, I know that in reality its not unethical at all, thanks to Hobbes desires and aversions.
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 03:05 pm
@Pancho the Great,
Pancho the Great wrote:
Like when they say I can't ...


Who is "they"? Shouldn't that be a "we"? ... we're a society ... as a society, we need rules ... it is we as an historic collective that decides the rules ... as an individual you are perfectly free to count yourself among the "we" and enjoy the many benefits of society - part of which means you commit to the rules, both in terms of obeying them and helping to define/refine them ... as an individual you are also perfectly free to divorce yourself from the "we" and go live in a rain forest where there are no rules ... you are enslaved to no one - the choice is yours ... isn't that the very definition of freedom?
 
Pancho the Great
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 03:32 pm
@paulhanke,
False sense of freedom maybe. I do agree with you in theory, but theory and practice are two very different things and the probability of a rain Forest being its own sovereign nation in the year 2008 is highly improbable and you will have to respond to the rules of whatever nation is running that part of the rain forest. Divorcing your self from society is not possible this day and age. You know the funny thing about being free is that you are either free or your not, there is no median, so the minute there is one law saying you can't do something, you are not free, having to face consequences from another person thrown into this world just like you is not freedom. But of course "if you sit by the peg all day you don't know your on a leash," (Leftover Crack) try to smoke crack in front of a cop see how free you are, you can't even kill yourself, if your not successful with suicide, you will be charged with attempted suicide and you will be closely monitored by a cop or nurse everyday for at least six months. You can't even try to kill yourself and miss if you choose. And who is they?, they is obviously you, in order to be we I must be in agreement with whatever is going on with the we, but I don't even agree on a fundamental or basic level. Remember if the foundation of a house is cracked and you continue to build, your walls will fracture in the future. We do not need so many rules a few fundamental rules should cover it, there is a law for everything. Patriot act gone too far, drug laws, suicide laws, all should be gone, however I do agree with killing laws, and driving laws and environmental protection laws, mostly cuz of one law I laid out for myself that is universal, "one should not directly affect another, only indirect affect is legal." With driving and killing you can directly affect another person. With that one law is the closest to freedom I can ever get, which bases off of the only reason I don't do it is cuz I wouldn't want it done to me, (desires and aversions) thank you bambi!
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 04:59 pm
@Pancho the Great,
Pancho the Great wrote:
We do not need so many rules a few fundamental rules should cover it, there is a law for everything. Patriot act gone too far, drug laws, suicide laws, all should be gone, however I do agree with killing laws, and driving laws and environmental protection laws, mostly cuz of one law I laid out for myself that is universal, "one should not directly affect another, only indirect affect is legal."


... excellent point! :a-ok: ... can you think of ways we can work to fix the situation? ... it seems to me that we wouldn't be able to do it all in one fell swoop (the problem is too enormous, there's a ton of inertia to overcome, and many many many compromises to be made), but is there someplace to start chipping away at it?
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 21 Aug, 2008 04:39 pm
@midas77,
midas77 wrote:
We act according to what we consider good. It is in this sense that in terms of human action what is right is always equated with what is good.

We always act according to our definition of good; but whether it is objectively, which is to say: Generally judged and accepted as good depends upon whether the action is good for few or for many. The best philosophy in the world might be: what goes around comes around, because that statment teaches that end and beginning are connected, that good is good for all, and the wrong we do is suffered extensively.
 
Pancho the Great
 
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 05:07 pm
@Fido,
Paulhanke,
boy are you right about the size of the problem and you certainly are right about starting to chip away at the problem, and I will do what ever is in my power starting with voting, and playing shows, trying to educate the dumb by printed text around the college...and then getting the hell out of here. But still where is the freedom from humanity, isn't there enough lack of freedom just with nature alone? Like I'm not free from being human, or gravity, or having to rely on oxygen. And then still enter society where your freedoms are still suppressed further, replaced with a false sense of freedom so that it is not so evident. But still we left the question about good and evil to discuss freedom...so about the good and the bad?
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 07:45 pm
@Pancho the Great,
Pancho the Great wrote:
But still where is the freedom from humanity, isn't there enough lack of freedom just with nature alone? Like I'm not free from being human, or gravity, or having to rely on oxygen.


... do I wish I could just spread my wings and fly? ... certainly (it sure is awesome when I do it in my dreams! :a-ok:) ... but some things are what they are and no amount of wishing is going to change that ... the fact that I can't fly under my own power is part of the "physics" of human being - on the other hand, being human means that I do possess some absolutely marvelous gifts, which I choose to appreciate and cultivate rather than sit around and dwell on my avian-envy Wink.

Pancho the Great wrote:
And then still enter society where your freedoms are still suppressed further, replaced with a false sense of freedom so that it is not so evident.


... I think this is another glass-half-empty/glass-half-full situation - it's a matter of blind luck that you were born in America and not, say, Darfor ... Henry Steele Commager states things better than I ever could:

Quote:
But in America, where the Revolution was not followed by a Thermidor (the horror of the French Revolution), and where the greatest of philosophes was triumphantly elected to the highest office, the Enlightenment not only survived but triumphed. Contemporaries saw this more clearly than we do now, for time has blurred our perception of that contrast between life in the Old World and in the New which was so sharp in the eyes of the generation that made the American Revolution - a contrast not only in material well-being but in moral. We tend increasingly to interpret the American Revolution and Enlightenment not in eighteenth- but in twentieth-century terms, to see it not against the background of eighteenth-century Europe but against the foreground of our own time, and to be more conscious of its limitations than of its spectacular achievements. We take for granted what neither Americans nor Europeans took for granted in the eighteenth century; not only have we lost that sense of astonishment and exultation that animated Jefferson's generation, we have almost lost our ability to understand it. It is not perhaps surprising that we should be skeptical of a society that preached liberty and practiced slavery, but it is surprising that we should be equally skeptical of a society that achieved a larger degree of political and social democracy, constitutional order, effective limits on the pretensions of government, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, civil liberties, popular education, and material well-being than any other on the globe.
... it would be wonderful if each generation of Americans could achieve something so astonishingly laudable ... unfortunately, as Commager implies, we're getting rather complacent about what we have, and as we understand it less and less we also become more and more likely to lose it.

Pancho the Great wrote:
But still we left the question about good and evil to discuss freedom...so about the good and the bad?


... a first question is whether there is any such thing as objective good and evil - or is all good and evil purely subjective?
 
BrightNoon
 
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 09:07 pm
@paulhanke,
I am so far into nihilism I can't even remember when I beleived something, in the ultimate sense of the word. Of course, I expect to be alive in the morning, I expect the sun to rise, etc. Essentially, the end of reason is, not suprisingly, unreason. Do that which you do, judge in some way or not, and then do it some more or do something else, quite often for reasons you cannot even fathom. Nihilism should not breed futility; it should make one realize that nothing is truly futile, because there is no ultimate purpose. Futility is only possible when there is a purpose: e.g. living without praying is futile if you believe in heaven.

To live without ultimate reasons, purposes, or values, which you beleive are 'right' is ultimate freedom; you are like an actor upon the stage; the purpose, so to speak, of your existance is in that existance itself, not something else, which may or may not actually exist.
 
ogden
 
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2008 08:30 am
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235 wrote:
How does one determine what is right(what is the good:))?



Your use of the word "determine" points to the fact that "good" is a subjective judgment.

Subjective judgments seam limitless; bounded only by the number of individuals and the objects they place value on.

It is important to remember that this thread is not about what is good, but how one makes that determination. The mechanics of "how" these judgments are made has been well coverd in this post and in the forums previous, and lengthy, morality discusions.

My personal opinion is that boagie is correct when he says that value judgments stem from self presrvation motives. I also think that some of these judgments stem from our biology. I mean asthetics, semitry, and order are in themselves value judgments that are rooted in our physiology. As complex social creatures we humans, not suprisingly, develop complex value systems that can be hard to analyze. Systems that grow as we grow and morph with ever changing conditions. Making value judgments is intrinsic with being human and it is always done using a subject object relationsip determination, nomater how complex.
 
Fido
 
Reply Tue 2 Sep, 2008 04:58 pm
@Pancho the Great,
Pancho the Great wrote:
Paulhanke,
boy are you right about the size of the problem and you certainly are right about starting to chip away at the problem, and I will do what ever is in my power starting with voting, and playing shows, trying to educate the dumb by printed text around the college...and then getting the hell out of here. But still where is the freedom from humanity, isn't there enough lack of freedom just with nature alone? Like I'm not free from being human, or gravity, or having to rely on oxygen. And then still enter society where your freedoms are still suppressed further, replaced with a false sense of freedom so that it is not so evident. But still we left the question about good and evil to discuss freedom...so about the good and the bad?

The chains you cannot hope to break soon grow unnoticed, and all you do is what can be done. To me, what you are referring to is a-morality, or better, demoralization. If you see that you are miserable, and everyone you know is miserable, but effecting a change means bringing everyone along, then it gets too big a mountain to climb, another unbreakable chain that people bow down and accept. I don't accept it, but only because I realize how easily intelligent people change with a little light to show the way. You don't have to change everyone to have a change. You only have to change yourself. Not to accept, mind you, but to not accept, to not believe, to be disenthralled, and alive. And still do as you can.
 
Pancho the Great
 
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2008 03:55 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
You don't have to change everyone to have a change. You only have to change yourself.

Fido,
Thank you, you give me a glimmer of hope, and you speak the truth. The only thing is its hard to be yourself when being yourself is breaking the law, you will always be encountered with resistance, my life is an uphill battle. Like for example here in my hometown of El Paso the city is trying to extend a street right through Tigua Indian land, we all know overtime the Indians have almost been stripped of everything, and now they still want to take more from them...This is where I choose not to just change me, if you have the strength you must stand. There may not be a right and wrong in my eyes but some things still disgust me. They wont take that land without a fight from me, they will be encountered with protests, petitions, and a punk show right on the construction site. But it will only go so far before me and my band are arrested because you need permision to protest and we will never get it legally from city hall. So are you suggesting I run away and forget about the Indians or maybe you can give me some ideas on how we could win.


Quote:
To live without ultimate reasons, purposes, or values, which you beleive are 'right' is ultimate freedom; you are like an actor upon the stage; the purpose, so to speak, of your existance is in that existance itself, not something else, which may or may not actually exist.
BrightNoon explains it so much better than me Paulhanke, there is no right and wrong or purpose beyond existence so why do I get punished, oh yeah cuz no people that make the laws are Nihilist. You also sound rather cynic/stoic BrightNoon I like that. Oh and I wasn't complaining about my lack of freedom in nature, merely pointing it out, what I was complaining about was my lack of freedom in society, Paulhanke. The truth of the matter is will I not get arrested for exercising my "freedom"? It doesn't matter how free you call yourself. Like the good old band Leftover Crack says once more "You don't know your on a leash if you sit by the peg all day." And I love to run with my leash and choke my self as the leash tightens throwing me back reminding me it's not easy being free. And are you free if you have to suffer consequenses from another being just like you and I, but instead they have values and you don't, yet you must pay for their values. I look forward to your answer BrightNoon.
 
iconoclast
 
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2008 05:06 am
@Pancho the Great,
To live, to know, to live...
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 10:31 pm
@iconoclast,
Justin, you noted that nature teaches us what is "good" and "bad"? How exactly does it do this?

From my logic, it appears that nature teaches us the exact opposite: that there is no good and bad - it is constructed and applied by us. There is no objective scale here; it is relative to us humans, to each observer. It is completely subjective and only even subjective because we have this emotional consciousness with which to view our individual reality. One man's bad may be another man's good, and a stone sure as hell can't tell the difference. That storm that just killed 200 people may be bad to me because I just lost my mother, but it's neither to the universe.

I'd also like you to expound on love, because as far as I can tell, I don't see it everywhere in nature. Yes, I would consider love good, as it leads to coexistence (for us, and debatably some other creatures), however, I wouldn't say there is any objectivity to this. It is a feeling after all, and it's not required for biological existence. However, as emotional creatures it may be a key in our particular case, lest our temple fall.

What is good, in my opinion? Something that leads to humanity's coexistence. Is that ambiguous? Absolutely, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

"Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication"
-Tool
 
Pancho the Great
 
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2009 04:02 am
@Zetherin,
I couldn't have said it better myself Zetherin. no really I tried read my other contributions should you not belive me. you just got the gift of gab man.
 
Elmud
 
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 09:25 pm
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235 wrote:
Earlier I spied a thread asking whether or not we know what is good for us. This question is good and well, however, I wish to ask of you: How does one determine what is right(what is the good:))? Be creative and avoid excessive use of reductive logic leading to existential nihilism unless you can postulate a reasonable solution. If you choose a solution, continue it out as intricately as possible. Come up with a solution you might be willing to die for if you knew it would be implemented immediately upon your death.
Go wild on this one gents.

Right things produce a positive consequence. Wrong things produce a negative consequence. Both of which fall into the common sense category.
 
AVOIDA
 
Reply Sat 21 Feb, 2009 02:13 pm
@Zetetic11235,
I have MY sense of what is right and wrong for me. Everyone else has theirs. we may share certain aspects of them within certain contexts.
There are as many 'dictionarys' of right and wrongs as there are people!
sometimes i enact behaviours i know are wrong for others for the sake of what is right for me, and vice/versa.
the hard work is gettng the balance right, and when i mess up, learn from it!
To generalise, i will endevour to accept your rights and wrongs as YOUR rights and wrongs. Please offer me the same.

If not? Worst case scenario!? Kill or be Killed? Whos right? Whos wrong?
 
 

 
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