War criminals should have terrorists status.

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Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 04:34 pm
@Aedes,
What.. new vocabulary is awesome. And even though the USA doesn't hold true to how a democracy should work, not too many nations come even close, morally speaking; if that is relevant in your terms.
 
Arjen
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 06:22 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday, did it occur to you that the hierarchal structur might not be beneficial? In that sense creating an 'over-government' would be further decline. Actually it is what the UN is sort of trying to do, if you'd forget about the World government agenda's for a moment that is...

What make syou think one government would be benificial?
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 07:05 pm
@Arjen,
When did I ever bring up one government being beneficial?

And yes it occurred to me that hierarchical structure might not be beneficial but I am convinced that America's lifestyle is much better than other countries, and not just because of America's assets but the system must have some implications as to why that is; don't you think?
 
Arjen
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 07:53 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
When did I ever bring up one government being beneficial?

I tought that was what you ment by this:

Holiday20310401 wrote:

Anyways, I was wondering what is so bad in putting the USA over other countries, when it comes to rights, and government. Democracy to me is a lot better than fanaticism, dictatorship, and communism. Even though some think communism is just better in certain countries, it is ironically, only for stability.


Quote:

And yes it occurred to me that hierarchical structure might not be beneficial but I am convinced that America's lifestyle is much better than other countries, and not just because of America's assets but the system must have some implications as to why that is; don't you think?

Actually Amreica's lifestyle can be afforded by the value of the coin. Economic workings bring a large amount of wealth from the rest of the world to america; effectively using the rest of the world as cheap labor. The values america seems to hold so dear are not applied to the offshore laborers.

The whole ecomic game is quite simple. One values the own coin higher than the coin of another and one can buy more off the other than the other can buy off you. Once started this is hard to reverse. When it turned out that the citizens of western countries started revolting due to the fact that they were exploited their wages started to rise, largely due to child labour prohibitions. That made the coin increase in value even more due to the increase in the amount of goods importable by the increase in value and wealth. The stream of goods coming into the western world is what keeps the life standard high, and that is maintained by the salaries of the populace. In that sense the populace has been made an accomplish to the exploitations and altrocities committed by a select few.

Allright, this was the really short version. Perhaps I should not leave out so many details, but it is nearly four in the morning here. I'm working the night shift this weekend and I had a moment to spare. Smile

Anyway, I hope that you realise that america's lifestyle is accomplished by the enslavement of a large part of the world. This enslavement is merely not really visible because it is happening outside of the border of the usa. Try to realise the pyramide structure in the division of wealth: a select elite has most of the money, the educated few have some money, the masses have little money and the third world has no money.

For what it is worth...
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 07:58 pm
@Arjen,
So you see the type of government having no impact on the lifestyle America is in today? And that perhaps there is a better one out there that parallels another nation's?
 
Arjen
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 08:04 pm
@Holiday20310401,
I think it is more or less true that the governmental type does not matter at all. All governments are despotism at the core of it; preying on its populace as a tool of a select elite. Democracy is merely a means of enlisting large populations into the aid of the select elite that is cleaning out the planet in the sense that it is an integral part of the pyramide structure I described above concerning the wealth distribution.

What is your idea with the benefits states anyway?
 
Aedes
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 08:23 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
What.. new vocabulary is awesome.
Don't be so anaesthetical Very Happy

Quote:
And even though the USA doesn't hold true to how a democracy should work, not too many nations come even close, morally speaking; if that is relevant in your terms.
Sure, it's indeed relevant. I think overall the underlying political philosophy of the United States is noble, but the operations are very flawed. The problem though is probably not one of design. The problem is that the mere availability of universal suffrage does not exactly empower everyone. When we can't seem to figure out a way to get people sufficiently educated and literate, and what was once local news has now been lost in the giant amoebic pseudopods of huge news "organizations", it's really really hard for people to make informed choices when they vote. And given the exorbitance of political campaigning, it's hard to keep big money out of politics.

Furthermore, both within the United States and internationally there is a huge vaccuum by which money is sucked out of the hands of the poor and into the hands of the rich. Whether it's through a disproportionate tax burden on the poor (for many reasons), or through the employment of cheap and virtual slave labor in developing nations just to get raw materials on the cheap, we're not exactly setting a model for governmental virtue.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 09:04 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
Don't be so anaesthetical Very Happy


I thought I was when I used square instead of rectangle in other thread.:poke-eye:
Laughing Maybe we should post in poems for the remainder of the thread or something.

Aedes wrote:
it's really really hard for people to make informed choices when they vote. And given the exorbitance of political campaigning, it's hard to keep big money out of politics.

Furthermore, both within the United States and internationally there is a huge vaccuum by which money is sucked out of the hands of the poor and into the hands of the rich.


Yeah how long did the democratic campaigning last? Too long. And I'm glad Obama won that bit.
And what kind of nation doesn't work that way? (money from poor to rich).
 
Aedes
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 09:11 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
I thought I was when I used square instead of rectangle in other thread.:poke-eye:
Hehe, yeah, you should avoid posting in IQ threads when under the influence of general aestheticalesia.

Quote:
Maybe we should post in poems for the remainder of the thread or something.
Look up the posts by the long departed pam69ur. They were sort of like poems. Sort of.

Quote:
Yeah how long did the democratic campaigning last? Too long. And I'm glad Obama won that bit.
Well, that I think is a credit to democracy that it remained competitive. I'd have been content with either of the democratic candidates.

Quote:
And what kind of nation doesn't work that way? (money from poor to rich).
A nation in which everyone lives in tiny little agrarian villages, off the "grid". Right. No nation. But we have a lot more poverty and disenfranchisement and disease and illiteracy in this country than other comparably technologized and developed democracies. So it's not exactly working for us.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 09:55 pm
@Aedes,
Quote:
A nation in which everyone lives in tiny little agrarian villages, off the "grid".


Aha! I knew you were a hippie at heart. Listening to Dylan, talking about off the grip communes.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 10:05 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:


Well, that I think is a credit to democracy that it remained competitive. I'd have been content with either of the democratic candidates.


Yeah but for me it was so irrelevant and they both don't really make a difference, that it came down to Hilary's smile. It just couldn't be tolerated. My ego... I mean, her smile looked dumfounded, she'd just smile back politely when Obama made a comment against her. It was a sign of evilness.Laughing
 
Aedes
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 10:07 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
Aha! I knew you were a hippie at heart. Listening to Dylan, talking about off the grip communes.
Come on, that was Dylan before he grew up. As he said in My Back Pages "Oh but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."

Visions of Johanna and Desolation Row -- THAT'S my kind of Dylan!
 
Aedes
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 10:10 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Yeah but for me it was so irrelevant and they both don't really make a difference, that it came down to Hilary's smile.
Hmm... if that's what we're voting on... I think Hillary probably has the best leadership skills of any of the three, but she really underachieved as a candidate. I saw her speak at my college back in '95 or '96 -- she was outstanding. My wife really wanted her -- the country really DOES need a woman leader sooner rather than later, and Hillary was the best prospect for that.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 10:19 pm
@Aedes,
Quote:
Yeah but for me it was so irrelevant and they both don't really make a difference, that it came down to Hilary's smile. It just couldn't be tolerated. My ego... I mean, her smile looked dumfounded, she'd just smile back politely when Obama made a comment against her. It was a sign of evilness.


Because of her long involvement with high level politics, I greatly favored Obama. But I imagine that when it came time, I would have been able to stomach a lesser of two evils vote against McCain. My Obama vote will be a lesser of two evils vote anyway. I'm still upset about his vote on the domestic spying legislation.

Quote:
Come on, that was Dylan before he grew up. As he said in My Back Pages "Oh but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."

Visions of Johanna and Desolation Row -- THAT'S my kind of Dylan!


Do I sense a Marty Robbins fan?
 
Aedes
 
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 11:23 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
Do I sense a Marty Robbins fan?
Nah, country isn't my thing -- even good country. I also like Tom Waits a lot, and I listen to a lot of Indie groups that I've heard on XM and on All Songs Considered.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2008 11:06 am
@Aedes,
Does anybody here like rock or alternative rock?!!
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2008 01:55 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Quote:
Does anybody here like rock or alternative rock?!!


Word. Anything from Buddy Holly and Little Richard to Metallica and the Mars Volta.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2008 08:11 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Speaking of war criminals and Dylan, though, just to get back on track, his song Masters of War is an interesting commentary on the subject. It's of course extremely idealistic, but it essentially demonizes the whole machinery of sheltered war-waging. His portrayal criminalizes everyone all the way to the top.

It's interesting just in that it's an attitude that considers all war inexcusable, regardless of pretext.
 
Arjen
 
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2008 08:34 pm
@Aedes,
Speaking of war-crimes, don't you all think that taking away freedom of speech is a crime as well, and the first sign of a dictator who is losing the illusion of control of a situation?
 
 

 
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