Love and Honour

@speakerchef,

speakerchef wrote:

Fido, I hope you have found this!

While I agree with your points, I fear I may have not made myself clear.

Sure, pedophilia is sick and twisted, but I believe you stated that love was a relationship. I was trying to point out, that no mattered how twisted the relationship was, it was still by your definition love.

Also, you didn't elaborate as to honour's meaning.

What is love?

What is honour?

Cheers!
-sc

Don't put words in my mouth pardner. There is nothing about pedophelia that is love and not rape.

I said love is a form of relationship. So can victim and victor be a relationship, though unequal. Not all relationships are love, but love is a part of all good relationships. Honor is an essential part of all good relationships as well. It must preceed love, because who can love who they do not trust; and honor is essential to trust.

@speakerchef,

I would think love breeds honor and not the other way around. Here is a definition I found on Dictionary.com of Honor.
[INDENT]

honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor.
a source of credit or distinction: to be an honor to one's family.
high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor.
such respect manifested: a memorial in honor of the dead.
high public esteem; fame; glory: He has earned his position of honor.
the privilege of being associated with or receiving a favor from a respected person, group, organization, etc.: to have the honor of serving on a prize jury; I have the honor of introducing this evening's speaker.
Usually, honors. evidence, as a special ceremony, decoration, scroll, or title, of high rank, dignity, or distinction: political honors; military honors.
(initial capital letter) a deferential title of respect, esp. for judges and mayors (prec. by His, Her, Your, etc.).

[/INDENT]So if a man knows no love, then how can he have honor? So in my opinion, first there was love... Love precedes honor. If one is filled with love, then honor comes second nature and therefore wouldn't even be an issue.

As far as relationships go, it's either healthy or unhealthy. In my studies, (and experiences) I'm finding that love is what we are and that's where it starts. Love isn't something one has to prove nor is love something that has to be displayed. It just is or it isn't and it starts with Loving oneself. In giving and displaying love, love will be returned. Sex and pedophilia have nothing to do with love.

That's my opinion of it based on my experience of it.

@Justin,

Good post Justin... Honor comes from the Love for ones self and the need to please this love. I agree also that sex has nothing to do with Love. Sex is strictly a human craving pushed by the instinct for procreation.

@PoPpAScience,

Poppascience,

I think we are merely facing an ambiguity to the word love.

Love, as some use it means lust.
Others use it to mean marital love (not lust).
There is also fraternal love which is not limited to brothers, but very close friends at least.
Love is sometimes an action.
Love is sometimes a feeling.
Love sometimes mean to REALLY like as in: "I love thin crust sausage and mushroom pizza! (which by the way is outstanding, although I have yet to fall in love with it).
There is complete and total obsession.
There is complete and total devotion.
Worship, I suppose is a form of love.
There is playful love (flirting, although not strictly romantic).

The problem with love is that there are not only different types, but also different levels of intensity, an English is terrible at conveying them.

I have several questions that I would like to hear any answers on:

1. What are all the ways of love (use foreign words if you have to)?
2. Define the concisely.
3. Is it possible to change the English language to include some/all types of love?
4. How?
5. Has anyway else known the glory of a thin crust sausage and mushroom pizza?

This, I think is about to become an outrageously interesting topic.

Lastly, Fido, I disagree, If you what to discuss more about it, I'd be happen to, but I suspect that our parry and thrust arguments may be bit uninteresting to others, so if you'd like to shoot me an email, tell me and I'll give you my address.

Cheers!
-sc

@Justin,

Justin wrote:

I would think love breeds honor and not the other way around. Here is a definition I found on Dictionary.com of Honor.[INDENT]

honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor.

a source of credit or distinction: to be an honor to one's family.

high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor.

such respect manifested: a memorial in honor of the dead.

high public esteem; fame; glory: He has earned his position of honor.

the privilege of being associated with or receiving a favor from a respected person, group, organization, etc.: to have the honor of serving on a prize jury; I have the honor of introducing this evening's speaker.

Usually, honors. evidence, as a special ceremony, decoration, scroll, or title, of high rank, dignity, or distinction: political honors; military honors.

(initial capital letter) a deferential title of respect, esp. for judges and mayors (prec. by His, Her, Your, etc.).

[/INDENT]So if a man knows no love, then how can he have honor? So in my opinion, first there was love... Love precedes honor. If one is filled with love, then honor comes second nature and therefore wouldn't even be an issue.

As far as relationships go, it's either healthy or unhealthy. In my studies, (and experiences) I'm finding that love is what we are and that's where it starts. Love isn't something one has to prove nor is love something that has to be displayed. It just is or it isn't and it starts with Loving oneself. In giving and displaying love, love will be returned. Sex and pedophilia have nothing to do with love.

That's my opinion of it based on my experience of it.

Anyone can desire another. Anyone can feel love and the desire for love. But in a relationship, a love relationship each brings with it a full compliment of honor, honesty, and trust. If you cannot trust you cannot love, and if you cannot be trusted you cannot be loved. If you wish a formal relationship like marriage; then it depends upon your oath, and your oath depends upon your honor to be fulfulled. Love is like going into a temple to embrace a goddess. Will you do this with the dirt of the road on you? People do ablations before entering the temple. This was the crime of Agamemnon, thinking, with the help of his wife, that he was better than some mere mortal. But we are mortal. We do not go to love to take, but to give.

What have we of an eathly nature to give for the love we recieve? What have we but our honor, our place in the community, our just demand for the respect of our fellows, and our promise that we will keep our promises? How many times do we bed with strangers with nothing more than our word that we are honest and true to our words? What more does it take, than to say you will not hurt that person, and deprive them of their dignity out of their need for intimacy?

We do not realize what we have lost in trading in our honor for money. When that first happened it was kings who could put aside their marriages, and then the rich, and then the average, and then finally the whole idea of marriage could be safely tossed. Yet, it is not the act of marriage that makes the relationship, but the love, and honor makes love possible. Who needs marriage who has both love and honor?

@Fido,

I have found this to be the best definition of love that I have heard, and I think it speaks much about honor as well:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

@NeitherExtreme,

NeitherExtreme wrote:

I have found this to be the best definition of love that I have heard, and I think it speaks much about honor as well:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Any man who can figure out how to give a hundred percent to love will find he can give more. How can this be possible if love were not the very definition of good, and could not make all better than it finds them?

fido

@Fido,

Fido wrote:

Anyone can desire another. Anyone can feel love and the desire for love. But in a relationship, a love relationship each brings with it a full compliment of honor, honesty, and trust. If you cannot trust you cannot love, and if you cannot be trusted you cannot be loved. If you wish a formal relationship like marriage; then it depends upon your oath, and your oath depends upon your honor to be fulfulled. Love is like going into a temple to embrace a goddess. Will you do this with the dirt of the road on you? People do ablations before entering the temple. This was the crime of Agamemnon, thinking, with the help of his wife, that he was better than some mere mortal. But we are mortal. We do not go to love to take, but to give.

Well, I can see where you are coming from with this but before anyone can love anyone else, they must first love themselves. If one aren't comfortable with oneself and don't love oneself, we have no ability to radiate love to another.

What difference does it make what other people do? Really, think about it. The only thing I can control is my own thoughts and perception. So in that, if I would love myself and be comfortable within myself that would naturally be expressed in the energy coming from me and would attract the likes.

As far as being mortal... Now sure exactly what you mean here but we are spiritual beings living in an earthly body. Our earthly body is a vessel to play the game of life. Our spirit is our essence and our true selves and eternal. Mans ego leads him to create his identity outside of himself in the illusion of life and creation. It all starts at home. Love is found within, not without.

If you know yourself and you love and trust yourself, why would you take issue with someone else? People believe that they have to start outside of themselves and change others without taking a look within themselves. We tend to be very good at pointing out the wrongs and weaknesses in others however, we're just reflecting our own thinking.

Fido wrote:

What have we of an earthly nature to give for the love we receive?

Give of yourself. Give of your spirit. Give freely for the re-giving. Whatever you have of an earthly nature to give is something that you have created. It doesn't start out there, it's starts at home first and the it will express itself in the earthly nature. Love gives love and attracts and receives love. Hate gives hate and attracts and receives hate.

Fido wrote:

What have we but our honor, our place in the community, our just demand for the respect of our fellows, and our promise that we will keep our promises?

You have your own conscience self and your own thoughts and perception. Why would you demand respect from others when it comes from the giving of it? Think about it. Our place in our community means nothing at all. That is part of the worldly identity we tend to embrace. Again, seeing ourselves as our body based on the years we live our lives... rather than looking at our eternal selves.

Our promise or honor may sound good in terms of words we tell people, but it's the promise and honor we have within ourselves that will reflect the truth. No need to demand, when we are in command of our thoughts and perception and will in-as-much... re-give that which it has been given.

Fido wrote:

How many times do we bed with strangers with nothing more than our word that we are honest and true to our words?

What difference does it make? Bedding down with strangers is having sex and that is something that is existent in all of nature and our electric universe. It's all sexed opposites. So what difference is our word or our honest if we aren't being honest with ourselves? If we were, we wouldn't be bedding down with strangers for the sake of earthy and bodily pleasures that contribute nothing to ones actual spiritual self.

Fido wrote:

What more does it take, than to say you will not hurt that person, and deprive them of their dignity out of their need for intimacy?

I can't answer this. It's simply out of my league and not on the same frequency.

Intimacy, love, affection, abundance, respect, dignity and all others are first found within oneself before it can be manifested outside of oneself.

To honor yourself, honor your neighbor. To hurt yourself, hurt somebody else.

Fido wrote:

We do not realize what we have lost in trading in our honor for money. When that first happened it was kings who could put aside their marriages, and then the rich, and then the average, and then finally the whole idea of marriage could be safely tossed. Yet, it is not the act of marriage that makes the relationship, but the love, and honor makes love possible. Who needs marriage who has both love and honor?

What you are doing here is stating something about trading our honor for money. Why embrace such a thought? The only thing that we control is our thoughts. We cannot control the past or the future. We simply have no control over anything other than our perception.

In our perception we send and receive signals and whichever we send is what we're going to attract back. Like attracts like.

So, I'm saying above that Love breeds Honor and not the other way around. One needs to know love first within themselves, (because it's in balance) before they can honor and give love to another. In that love and balance, all good things will come in abundance.

Our world will reflect back to us, that which we reflect into it.

Thanks Fido for the discussion and these are my thoughts. Peace!

@Justin,

I don't expect anyone can love themselves fully without honor. People think I have pride. I do. I am an honorable man even when it does serve me. Let me rephrase that. Honor cause me some pain and sicomforts at time, but the feeling of honor is my reward. So, I don't steal love, but try to earn it. And love is not just some spiritual quality that only poets can grasp. Everyone, and even animals can grasp love. We cannot all express love. We can all demonstrate love in some tangible fashion. Caring shows love. Love is caring.

@speakerchef,

The greatest form of love is sacrifice.

@Casualty,

Casualty wrote:

The greatest form of love is sacrifice.

No. Love is a form of relationship. Like all relationships, love demands some sacrifice, some give with the take.

@Fido,

There are so many meanings to the word love that in the end, you just don't know which meaning to pick up.
I think love in the purest form is just a form of attachment. It can exist with or without honour. However, honour complements and enriches love.

I'm new to this forum so please let me know if I'm doing something wrong. Smile

@Fido,

Fido wrote:

because who can love who they do not trust; and honor is essential to trust.

I can, and have unfortunately. Such things don't end well, but we don't always choose our own feelings.

@Quatl,

It is a pleasure to read real philosophy. Clear, analytical, and with arguments to support one's position.

@Nem,

Nem wrote:

There are so many meanings to the word love that in the end, you just don't know which meaning to pick up.
I think love in the purest form is just a form of attachment. It can exist with or without honour. However, honour complements and enriches love.

I'm new to this forum so please let me know if I'm doing something wrong.

There may be as many definition of love as there have been people who felt it; but there is something in love in common with other forms of relationships, and somethings common only to love itself. Caring is essential to all love. Desire is essential to romantic love. Sacrifice is common to every form of relationship.

@speakerchef,

hmmm... I still don't believe there's a real connection between Love and Honor. Only because Love is in creation and honor seems more of something to do with a man's ego.

Think of it this way. Does nature express honor or does nature express love? Honor is something between people. One does not have to be filled with love to have honor. Honor can be between enemies and it seems more of a way of identifying the ego of man. Where love is an expression of balance and creation... am I making sense.

I grew up without love but I had honor. While today my friends still view me as honorable, love and knowing love and feeling loved is much more important to myself and my family.

Fido, as far as love being a relationship, I would have to say that it is part of a relationship but a relationship is not necessarily a definition of love. We can certainly compare love in a relationship but love isn't necessarily The relationship. However, relationship with God or the creator can also be considered love.

It's a difficult one to define non-the-less. The definition of both would come in the expression of both. While we can try to define love with in words, loves definition comes from the manifestations of love.

Fido wrote:

What have we of an earthly nature to give for the love we recieve? What have we but our honor, our place in the community, our just demand for the respect of our fellows, and our promise that we will keep our promises?

Fido, while I understand where you are coming from with the above quote, I can't agree with it. Giving of love opens one up for the regiving of Love. Like a mirror reflection. Our place in the community or our just demand for respect is not coming out of love but Ego. Love with ego and true love are altogether different. For love knows no boundaries, it just gives and gives freely. Keeping promises and earning respect of others comes naturally in how love is expressed. However, shall we place our identity on our position in the community or in whether or not we have earned the respect of our fellows? I think not. Respect doesn't have to be demanded as respect for oneself and knowing of oneself and loving of oneself will reflect just that.

I think you are talking more about love and honor from a point of a man woman relationship such as marriage and I wouldn't mind talking about this more partly because I have a wife of 10 years and have seen some ups and downs but another thread altogether.

NeitherExtreme wrote:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Good definition.

Here's one,

The definition of Love is in the expressed manifestation each of us give to it. - Justin

@speakerchef,

Sir. We are all in relationships. Life is a relationship. All our concepts are forms we relate through, and so, forms of relationship. Do I need to state this as an obvious fact, since it is true of all forms? I do not think it is particularly obvious to most folks. I got it by accident, looking for another explaination of human behavior. My point is this: Love is not just an emotion, and not just an individual act of caring. Love is a form people build their lives around, and recreate themselves in. As a relationship, trust is essential, and so is honor. Why? Honor is essential to all successful relationships; but in love especially, where the stakes are so high, and people invest themselves intimately, and absolutely, as the oath says: forsaking all others. If you are young, it is difficult to recognize to what degree you will in age share your identity with children, and spouse. It is possible only because each shares the same honor, virtue if you will that makes a person one day be a good business partner, a good citizen, and a good spous. We need to trust ourselves before we can promise our love. We need to trust theother before we can accept the love of others.

@Justin,

My personal opinion is that there is no such thing as a romantic love (falling in love with someone), and I'm quite confused on this topic overall since I just can't belive in something that seems so designed to make people belive in monogamy which is also a joke if anything, once again, in my opinion.

How many people truely live in a monogamist relationship? I found a book online called "Catch a Cheating Lover" by E. Talurdey where the author apparently claims that 80% of all married couple cheat some time during their marriage... Of course to be a little critical, this number is probably estimated and doesn't mean much in the long run.. But I've had this monogamy debate with several firend and have found to my amazement that I know like, ONE couple that have been together over three years where no partner have cheated or tried to cheat on the other.. So how are you suppose to belive in monogamy if the number is that high?

And if "love" isn't the one thing that makes humans monagamist, what is? Because as I understand it, people still calim that we are one of the few monogamist creatures still around, but I don't agree with that..

I think the whole "love" thing is based on religion, that somebody who decided that sex is filthy and wrong spread this thru religion, while in all acctuallity, it's one of the most wounderful things around in my opinion. And to me, this proves that love is atleast in 80% of all couples just a strong lust for eachother and attraction between two people and they feel like they have to call it love in order for it not to be filthy, this is probably not the partners them selves aware of but that doesn't make it any less true.

I base this "love comes from religion" theory of mine on the fact that all major religions today say that you have to be married to get to have sex and at the same time saying that marriage is suppose to last for ever, so, monogamy is made up by the same people who made up the religions.. And because the illusion of romantic love is the reason we have the idea of beeing a monogamist creature, love is a side effect of the sex ban that most religions bring to the table.

Ofcourse, I just have to mention that the love between a parent and child, siblings and firends are no illusion to me, those are real. But the parent and child one comes from the fact that they are attatched to each other because the parent see it as their duty to help and protect their child, and the child have that same feeling back to the parent. Sibling is the same thing, they are family, family help eachother whenever it's needed. Firends are once again the same thing, nice company that you enjoy and helping eachother.. So that love is just a strong bond and strong loyalty, nothing more.

Justin wrote:

hmmm... I still don't believe there's a real connection between Love and Honor. Only because Love is in creation and honor seems more of something to do with a man's ego.

Yeah I agree with you Justin, didn't quite get why honor and love where in the same thread...

Honor is as Justin said, a man's ego, pride. The honor a man has can easily be offended by another person, and a man who belives in honor will do anything in his power to get back at this induvidual who offended his honor or pride. See it from the medieval perspective, if somebody would insult a knights honor, there would be a fight, probably to the death because of it. You can call it pride, ego or honor, it's basicly the same thing if you ask me..

@Wizzy,

I can see that you are tuned into the power of honor as a negative force. It has its dark side. I see it as a form of economy which is strongest where there is no money. In primitive economies it can be used much as money, to motivate people to do what is right. And always? Never; like Cain it the Bible, pride is a hazzard. And it is funny to me sometimes, because I am old and old fashioned. My spous damns me for my pride, and thinks it comes between me and God, and myself and her. I have pride in one thing: that my honor is the most essential thing to me; and when I pledged myself to love, I did it without reserve, not being fore sworn, allowing myself no escape, but commited to this relationship until death puts an end to it. I did not say only so long as I am happy. I did not say only so long as we are well, or as long as the money holds out. It has not always been easy. Sometimes it has been torture. I cannot tell my wife to what extent my honor is reason I am with her now when the love is all blessing and not of pain. I have my pride, and I deserve it because I put honor in its proper place in my life, and I hope I can always manage to do so. If I did not love my honor I would not be fit to love, and from my observations, it is those who do not feel they deserve the love they have who most often piss it away. I will not piss my love or my life away. We only get one shot in life no matter what you are told. I have had two, and perhaps more. All the more reason to sooner than later bet all on a single contest.

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