when are we no longer human?

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Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 08:23 am
this is slightly different than my other question, so i made it a different thread. mods, if you think they should be merged, please merge.

going along with the ideas of getting body parts replaced....

how much can you replace with artificial body parts and still be considered human?

right now we can make artificial joints, and some artificial organs. lets say we develop a way to make artificial everything. lets say i get artificial limbs, artificial heart, artificial lungs, i just replace each organic piece of myself as it goes bad with the new plastic version science has for sale, at what point am i no longer human? is there a percentage line that delineates human from....robot?

if 50 % of me is artificial am i still human? (assuming my brain is still organic)

if only 30 % of me is artificial am i still human? (brain still organic)

if it's just my brain and my crappy eyes (which need glasses) in a super sleek plastic/titanium "body" that pumps blood and oxygen and nutrients to my brain to keep it functioning properly, am i human?

if i am just my brain in an artificial body made of plastic and synthetic material, am i still human?

is my "human-ness" my physical body, my vulnerability? is it my thoughts and feelings?
 
mark noble
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 09:15 am
@harlequin phil,
Hi Harlequin,

I, personally would define a (human) as 'That which is born to human parents'.
Every part thereof.
Up until the point where there is only one remaining genetic link to the parent, I would still define that last strand of DNA as 'Human'.
Thus - If you were dropped in a vat of acid, then rebuilt from said 'Last strand' - I would still accept you to be Human in essence. It may not be you, but it would still be human.

Thank you, Harlequin, have a fantastic day.
Mark...
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 09:16 am
@harlequin phil,
hmm, I think the answer is the same as the answer to "when are we no longer us" question.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 03:03 pm
@Jebediah,
Good topic.

Imo there are no fixed values. It's very situational, and dependandt on many factors.

If the voice is synthetic but rest is human, then still 100% human, many has sufferd from Struma, and have had a throat-thingy-machine to generate voice, just like Uncle Jimbo's friend in South Park, even so the human touch are still there to hear.

If a person has artificial limbs, arms, legs and partially face implants, I would still consider the person a human, but maybe if it's dark and I only saw the artificial limbs, wihtout being able to see the human face, I may subconciously think of it as a machine, rather human.

I think only when the subject does not responds as a human would, the border has been reached.

Jebediah;174683 wrote:
hmm, I think the answer is the same as the answer to "when are we no longer us" question.
No, there are now more premesis to the matter, which Imo significantly differs from the other thread.
 
ABYA
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 04:03 pm
@harlequin phil,
harlequin;174664 wrote:


is my "human-ness" my physical body, my vulnerability? is it my thoughts and feelings?


I would say that "Human-ness" is defined as desire, desires for sex, wealth, fame and honour etc. No matter how much plastic/titanium you have in your body, as long as you have a desire I would think of you as Human.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 04:06 pm
@ABYA,
ABYA;174834 wrote:
I would say that "Human-ness" is defined as desire, desires for sex, wealth, fame and honour etc. No matter how much plastic/titanium you have in your body, as long as you have a desire I would think of you as Human.
..ooh? Then the eastern spiritual people who have given up their desires, non-human?
 
ABYA
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 04:36 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;174839 wrote:
..ooh? Then the eastern spiritual people who have given up their desires, non-human?


ooh, but they do have desires, at least they have a desire not to have desires and a desire to be at oneness, plus I reckon normal desires which they can't eradicate but desire not to let us know they have them.
 
Render
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 05:42 pm
@harlequin phil,
I think this is a metaphysical question and can only be answered by the self. Sure, we could take an example where we determine if others are still human or not, but you would probably get an imprecise moderated answer.
Though for ourselves, we would always know when we are human.
 
harlequin phil
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 05:59 pm
@Render,
Render;174878 wrote:
I think this is a metaphysical question and can only be answered by the self. Sure, we could take an example where we determine if others are still human or not, but you would probably get an imprecise moderated answer.
Though for ourselves, we would always know when we are human.


not to hijack and derail my own thread, but if i programmed a robot to think it is human, it does not make it human, does it? so if i am my brain in a robot body, i might think i'm human, but really...am i?
 
Render
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 06:37 pm
@harlequin phil,
harlequin;174889 wrote:
not to hijack and derail my own thread, but if i programmed a robot to think it is human, it does not make it human, does it? so if i am my brain in a robot body, i might think i'm human, but really...am i?

Well this is tough and is fundamentally a dualism vs. physicalism argument.
Is the being of a human physically definable?
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 08:20 pm
@ABYA,
ABYA;174855 wrote:
ooh, but they do have desires, at least they have a desire not to have desires and a desire to be at oneness, plus I reckon normal desires which they can't eradicate but desire not to let us know they have them.
Uhmmm, quite "creative" reasoning. Very Happy
 
harlequin phil
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 10:05 pm
@Render,
Render;174905 wrote:
.......
Is the being of a human physically definable?


i don't know, i was hoping someone might be able to tell me.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 10:33 pm
@harlequin phil,
harlequin;174930 wrote:
i don't know, i was hoping someone might be able to tell me.
What puzzles me, is people usually ask questions to which there are no answers.
 
Shadow Dragon
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 07:32 am
@harlequin phil,
In my opinion, the only physical part of your body that defines you as human is your brain. As long as you still have an organic brain, you're human, even if the entire rest of your body is synthetic.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 08:18 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;174839 wrote:
..ooh? Then the eastern spiritual people who have given up their desires, non-human?


Hi Hexhammer,
Don't they still desire to maintain their resistance to desire, though?
Have a great day.
Mark...
 
harlequin phil
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 08:18 am
@Shadow Dragon,
Shadow Dragon;175010 wrote:
In my opinion, the only physical part of your body that defines you as human is your brain. As long as you still have an organic brain, you're human, even if the entire rest of your body is synthetic.


so you would look at a completely synthetic robot body with a human brain as a human?

you could cut off it's legs and arms, it would be a robot torso and robot head with a human brain in it, and you would consider it a human?
 
harlequin phil
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 08:24 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;174931 wrote:
What puzzles me, is people usually ask questions to which there are no answers.


well, i actually do think the being of human is physically definable... i think to be considered "human" is more than just a brain, it is also a "spirit" and i don't mean in the "soul" sense, but "spirit of st louis" sort of sense. and i think the actual physical body is what defines it as human. but it has to be a combination, not just one or the other.

something born of human parents is human.

take that something and alter it. remove a leg, add an arm. it's still human.

but take it's guts and put them in a titanium shell, so it is human innards in a fake casing...maybe...it is still human, but a lot less so...

remove the guts, keep the brain alive...no longer human.

but at what point does it change?

i think there is an answer. i just don't know it.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 09:51 am
@harlequin phil,
mark noble;175023 wrote:
Hi Hexhammer,
Don't they still desire to maintain their resistance to desire, though?
That's like calling a bruger candy, which defys the deeper definition.

harlequin;175025 wrote:
well, i actually do think the being of human is physically definable... i think to be considered "human" is more than just a brain, it is also a "spirit" and i don't mean in the "soul" sense, but "spirit of st louis" sort of sense. and i think the actual physical body is what defines it as human. but it has to be a combination, not just one or the other.

something born of human parents is human.

take that something and alter it. remove a leg, add an arm. it's still human.

but take it's guts and put them in a titanium shell, so it is human innards in a fake casing...maybe...it is still human, but a lot less so...

remove the guts, keep the brain alive...no longer human.

but at what point does it change?

i think there is an answer. i just don't know it.
..eeeeh ...excelent selfcontradiction!
 
mark noble
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 10:24 am
@harlequin phil,
harlequin;175025 wrote:
well, i actually do think the being of human is physically definable... i think to be considered "human" is more than just a brain, it is also a "spirit" and i don't mean in the "soul" sense, but "spirit of st louis" sort of sense. and i think the actual physical body is what defines it as human. but it has to be a combination, not just one or the other.

something born of human parents is human.

take that something and alter it. remove a leg, add an arm. it's still human.

but take it's guts and put them in a titanium shell, so it is human innards in a fake casing...maybe...it is still human, but a lot less so...

remove the guts, keep the brain alive...no longer human.

but at what point does it change?

i think there is an answer. i just don't know it.


Hi Harlequin,

Let's look at this through the eyes of compound-logic.
If we have a piece of wood - It is 100% a piece of wood - If we saw it in half - It is still 100% a piece of wood. No matter how many times we saw it in half, until we arrive at the point where it is no longer wood (The DNA-level) it will and MUST always remain 100% a piece of wood.
I hope this clarifies this post.
Thank you, and have a brilliant day.
Mark...
 
Shadow Dragon
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 11:59 am
@harlequin phil,
harlequin;175024 wrote:
so you would look at a completely synthetic robot body with a human brain as a human?

you could cut off it's legs and arms, it would be a robot torso and robot head with a human brain in it, and you would consider it a human?

Yeah, I would. To me, that wouldn't make him/her any less human than someone in an organic body who's a quadriplegic (or quadrople amputee). Though I don't think I'd take the poor guy's arms and legs. At least not without giving them back. :cool:
 
 

 
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