I notice that several of the protagonists in this debate have very clear-cut, dare I say stereo-typical, ideas of what religion is and does. And maybe those ideas are accurate insofar as they apply to many of the social forms that religion takes in the world today, insofar as it consists of 'what goes on in Church'.

But there is something entirely new that is happening. Nobody knows what it is, because nothing like it has ever happened before. Yeah, yeah, New Age, I hear you say. But what if it really is a new age? I mean, humanity is at a crisis point; nothing of what we are seeing now has ever happened before. We're not in the Old Stone Age, where it took several hundred thousand years to work out a different way of chipping flints. Now we have decoded the genome, split the atom, and photographed the Big Bang. Yet most of our ways of thinking about 'science and religion' are rooted firmly in the last several hundred years - mired in it, bogged in it. Most of the belief vs unbelief tennis match is based on an outmoded religiosity which is the target of an outmoded atheism. What is happening is a global change in consciousness. Yeah, yeah, I know, New Age. Crystal stores and 'What the Bleep'.

I suppose that is a digression, or a footnote, to the historical analysis approach. But it needed saying.

Ah! I get it! This is from the same formidable school of argumentation that compares God to Captain Crunch and Mickey Mouse! What can I do, I can see I am outclassed in all respects. I think I will just declare myself defeated and go off to lick my wounds.

I never did work that out. I lost you when you brought up, what was it, 'fairy floss' or 'cotton candy' or whatever it was.

My point is only that the claim that modern science is related to, or is a direct result of, Christianity, is not supported by modern science becoming popularized in a Christian society. Because, as we know, many things have become popularized in Christian societies, including, I believe, cotton candy. And so to say that all those things are all directly related to Christianity is not only wrong, but silly.

I understand the logical fallacy I think you are referring to, which is post hoc ergo propter hoc, roughly, 'after therefore because of'. But I don't think you have presented any kind of argument for it. The Christian intellectual tradition encompassed all aspects of natural philosophy including physics and cosmology. It contained within it most of what we still know about Greek philosophy as well. It was central in the formation of the Universities and played a pivotal role in the whole of Classical education. It was out of this milieu that modern science was born. It is an historical argument rather than a philosophical one but I think a very strong argument nonetheless.

Yes I understand. If I feel anger towards anybody, yourself included, it is my bad, as kids say nowadays. I have owned up before, I have a chip on my shoulder in this matter. I will attempt to try and not react like that.

I understand the logical fallacy I think you are referring to, which is post hoc ergo propter hoc, roughly, 'after therefore because of'. But I don't think you have presented any kind of argument for it. The Christian intellectual tradition encompassed all aspects of natural philosophy including physics and cosmology. It contained within it most of what we still know about Greek philosophy as well. It was central in the formation of the Universities and played a pivotal role in the whole of Classical education. It was out of this milieu that modern science was born. It is an historical argument rather than a philosophical one but I think a very strong argument nonetheless.

I think it is really monotheism, the notion of one god, of one unifying force that contributes to modern science.
It is also the Greek notion of logos (reason) being the fundamental principle on which the universe is based..

So, Prothero, maybe this is what happened to your 'rational, purposeful intelligence'. Such thinking was declared impudent paganism by the nominalists who insisted that God needed in no way to conform to man's sense of what is rational. 'What is good is good not in itself, but simply because God wills it. Thus while today God may save the saints and damn the sinners, tomorrow he may do the reverse' (Gillespie, p23). While faith in the inscrutable, all-powerful God remained, we earthlings simple confined ourselves to the observation of physical realities through natural philosophy, up to the point where God became 'a ghost in his own machine' and his existence was deemed superfluous. Ta-da. Welcome to modernity.

I think any time I hear someone argue that modern science has religion (mostly Christianity) as it's basis and that modern science never would have originated without christian influence is simply a fallacy.

But it's true Krumple. Just like the reform of oil well safety originated in the oil spill in the gulf.

(what cultural elements lead to innovation is an interesting and complicated study. China was incredibly innovative for a long time, but shut itself off. Other cultures didn't have the necessary resources. Europe's innovation was driven by constant infighting. In any case I don't see how it is a feather in the cap of Christianity that modern day science had its roots in Europe. And anyway, didn't they base a lot on the Greeks, Romans, and Muslims? I remember reading that the discovery of classical writings and books brought back from the Crusades sparked the Renaissance in Europe)

But it's true Krumple. Just like the reform of oil well safety originated in the oil spill in the gulf.

(what cultural elements lead to innovation is an interesting and complicated study. China was incredibly innovative for a long time, but shut itself off. Other cultures didn't have the necessary resources. Europe's innovation was driven by constant infighting. In any case I don't see how it is a feather in the cap of Christianity that modern day science had its roots in Europe. And anyway, didn't they base a lot on the Greeks, Romans, and Muslims? I remember reading that the discovery of classical writings and books brought back from the Crusades sparked the Renaissance in Europe)

It's true that modern science never would have come to be without Christianity?

That was sarcasm ;p

Oh, sorry, didn't see it! Got me. Damnit, see how easy tone can be misinterpreted?!

There have been scientists that were either murdered or imprisoned for making discoveries that contradicted the biblical beliefs. I think at certain times, you were forced to claim you were christian or faced prosecution.

Got any examples?