Good Point. I guess you could say that I'm not an orthodox radical skeptic, i.e. I still think that actual, real, objective knowledge may be possible, but it would require omniscience and observation beyond the limitations of the mind and body.

First, I'd like to congratulate you on solving the whole nature-nurture (chicken-egg) problem. And second, who determines the persons rudeness? The others around said acting individual? God? The Sheriff? Why are their opinions on rudeness more valid that the acting party?

It is encouraging to know that you believe that to ask someone what he means by a term before you comment on it, is to make a "good point". That gives me some hope for you.

Now, let's see whether we can build on this sliver of a foundation. I think I know that Quito is the capital of Ecuador. I think so because I have overwhelming justification for that belief, and it is true. Now, why do you believe that I may not know that Quito is the capital of Ecuador? (You just may have to say a little about what is meant by the term "knowledge" to answer my question).

It may be your belief that you are justified in that statement, but since you must still take the raw data of your perception and strain it through the grey computer in your skull, the reality may be completely different. Perhaps you are in a catatonic coma, a dreamworld in which you've fabricated you, me, Quito, Ecuador, South America, The Earth, etc. As ridiculous as it sounds, there would be no way for you to prove or disprove either of our ontological hypothesis, making them equally possible.

But how does it follow from the fact that the reality may be different that I do not know what the reality is?

Well, you may have guessed correctly, but you wouldn't know whether your theory was true or not, in the objective sense.

Not my personal values at all. That kind of behavior is simply called rude behavior in English. Just as the color of a fire truck is called "red" in English. Anyone who would not call the color of the fire truck "red" would be either someone who did not know the meaning of color terms in English, or was color blind, or maybe, joking. Similarly, anyone who did not think that the student's behavior was rude would not know the meaning of the word, "rude" in English, or would have some mental problems, or would be joking. The difference between "red" and "rude" is, of course, "red" carries no moral connotations along with it, but "rude" does. I already explained by "rude" carries those moral connotations. It is because rude behavior is condemned by most people, as it well should be! Anything else?

Hi Ken ,

In MY story he's polite. Anything else?

Thank you, and have a lovely day.

Mark...

Why not? Why would I not know that Quito is the capital of Ecuador just because it might not be the capital of Ecuador. (You keep using this term,"objective sense" just as if I am supposed to know what that sense is. I don't.). How would I be guessing that Quito is the capital of Ecuador when all my maps, my encyclopedias, and the tons of information I have confirm that it is, and there is no reason to suppose that it is not. That is called "guessing" that Quito is the capital of Ecuador. Not according to my understanding of the word "guess" it isn't. Why don't you look up "guess" in a dictionary?

OK, looks like some definitions are in order:

"Objective - not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased; of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality"

"Fact - something that actually exists; reality; truth; something known to exist or to have happened; a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true"

"Guess - an opinion that one reaches or to which one commits oneself on the basis of probability alone or in the absence of any evidence whatever."

*(all definitions from Dictionary.com)

Now, please explain to me how a mortal human can determine an objective fact that isn't just a guess.

"Fact - something that actually exists; reality; truth; something known to exist or to have happened; a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true"

What makes you think I care whether or not Quito is the capital of Ecuador? Why should I.

So, I must be quite objective about the proposition that Quito is the capital.

It is known that Quito is the capital, so it is a fact that it is.

I have an immense amount of evidence that Quito is the capital, therefore it cannot be a guess that it is.

Just because it is perceived as truth (known), doesn't make it objectively true (fact).

So, a fact and a truth are the same thing.

A proposition is either true or false, and all true propositions are facts, and since all facts are truths, all true propositions are truths.

But, there is a difference between propositions and what propositions are about. A proposition is what is expressed by a sentence, but what a proposition is about is not what is expressed by a sentence, but isn't what true propositions are about also facts? Thus, "fact" is ambiguous?

Strangely, a fact is about facts? Or to put it another way, a fact (or truth--or true proposition) is about not the propositions themselves but rather about what the propositions are about -- which are the world's objects and states of affairs.

Man, this stuff can get twisted mighty quick.

Not the same guy, then. That would just be like saying that in your story, the fire truck is green. In that case, it would not be the same truck.

Hi Ken,

Colours don't have an opposing value on a spectrum of opinion, neither do capital cities. The manner in which I use these "silly (wise) Subjectivisms" is based on the presence of " An opposing value".
Great thread though!!!

Have a fantastic day Ken.

Mark...

The rock is on the ground.

Is the rock a fact?

Perceived as true? Perceived as true doesn't imply knowledge. Knowledge (on the other hand) does imply truth, so if a proposition is known, then the proposition is true.

Whatever that means. But, if you happen only to mean that although whether the fire truck is red is not a matter of opinion, but whether the student is rude is (and who knows what you mean?) then you are simply begging the question since you are assuming exactly what is at issue. That is just the question, and you are begging it.

Now, please explain to me how a mortal human can determine an objective fact that isn't just a guess.

Hi Ken,

Don't you understand "opposing values" Good and Evil, Up and Down, Right and left, For and against, Wide and narrow, Deep and shallow, Heavy and light, Bravery and Cowardice, Saint and sinner, etc. There are lots of them - Pick up a "thesaurus" read the words within and (usually after the multiple likeness definitions) look up their opposites. It's great fun, AND knowledgeable too.

Let me know if you find any good (Evil) ones? see...

Thank you Ken, and have a great day.

Mark...