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This situation with Greece is very worrying. The last big crisis, we may recall, in Sept 2008, involved several very large companies who were 'too big to fail'. So the Government came in and injected some (borrowed) money. Now Greece might conceivably default on repayment of bonds on May 19th and the size of the rescue package is being put at around 120 billion Euros.

The worry is that in last crisis it was companies that had to be propped up. Now it is national economies. After Greece, there are big worries about Portugal and Spain - and Spain is a much bigger economy that Greece. There ain't enough money in the world to bail a problem that big out, should it come to that.

I will admit I am prone to being pessimistic. But the levels of public and private indebtedness associated with these problems are just inconceivably enormous. Britain's total govt debt is heading towards 80% of GDP, or something. Total public indebtedness has increased enormously in all the developed world in the last 20 years.

So to whom is all this money owed? Who is the debtor in all of this? Isn't it us, and our offspring, just a little further down the line? Our pension funds, and future taxes? I think the Western world has been writing cheques against the future for a long time. Well - the future is here. There have been dire warnings about 'the limits to growth' ever since Malthus. Maybe we are starting to hit them. Is the issue that economic theory does not take into account limits to growth? It assumes markets will always get bigger, real estate will always appreciate. It seems to assume a world where nothing ever runs out. But we are running out of credit here. Card is maxed.

Hopefully the problems with Greece will be contained. Hopefully the EU will get its act together, the Greeks tighten their belts and work out how to change the way they run their economy. Hopefully.

@jeeprs,

It's funny how I remember seeing this sort of thing as the logical conclusion to the way our economy was structured. Of course, my teachers didn''t want to here that opinion. No one seems to want to hear it now either. What do they think is gonna happen in a finite world without moderation? How far do they think they can go using percentages as a basis for things?

@jeeprs,

Well I hate to say it, but I think we are the lucky ones who get to find out the answer to that question. And the answer won't be pretty. Overall, I think, or hope, the result won't be economic collapse, as such, but the end of constantly rising living standards. And hard as it may seem to believe, the standard has been rising, on the average, ever since the industrial revolution.

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;157846 wrote:

Well I hate to say it, but I think we are the lucky ones who get to find out the answer to that question. And the answer won't be pretty. Overall, I think, or hope, the result won't be economic collapse, as such, but the end of constantly rising living standards. And hard as it may seem to believe, the standard has been rising, on the average, ever since the industrial revolution.

Yes indeed, bound to happen. 30 years ago I spent a lot of effort on an evaluation, using logic, of the way all our economics were based on percentages and rising profits and such. My government/ economics teacher and I had shouting matches about my use of that kind of logic never getting me anywhere. He may have been right, I don't have that far to fall, I'm already comfortable with being poor. Smile

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;157843 wrote:

So to whom is all this money owed? Who is the debtor in all of this? Isn't it us, and our offspring, just a little further down the line? Our pension funds, and future taxes? .

It is definitely not us. but the ones who [SIZE="4"]LITERALLY[/SIZE] own the money you have worked for your whole lives. It is the same people that SUPPLY YOUR GOVERNMENT WITH MONEY, THEY OWN THE MONEY!

Do you know what this means?

Maybe now you know what I mean when I say:
[SIZE="5"]This is THEIR show!![/SIZE]

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;157843 wrote:

This situation with Greece is very worrying. The last big crisis, we may recall, in Sept 2008, involved several very large companies who were 'too big to fail'. So the Government came in and injected some (borrowed) money. Now Greece might conceivably default on repayment of bonds on May 19th and the size of the rescue package is being put at around 120 billion Euros.

The worry is that in last crisis it was companies that had to be propped up. Now it is national economies. After Greece, there are big worries about Portugal and Spain - and Spain is a much bigger economy that Greece. There ain't enough money in the world to bail a problem that big out, should it come to that.

I will admit I am prone to being pessimistic. But the levels of public and private indebtedness associated with these problems are just inconceivably enormous. Britain's total govt debt is heading towards 80% of GDP, or something. Total public indebtedness has increased enormously in all the developed world in the last 20 years.

So to whom is all this money owed? Who is the debtor in all of this? Isn't it us, and our offspring, just a little further down the line? Our pension funds, and future taxes? I think the Western world has been writing cheques against the future for a long time. Well - the future is here. There have been dire warnings about 'the limits to growth' ever since Malthus. Maybe we are starting to hit them. Is the issue that economic theory does not take into account limits to growth? It assumes markets will always get bigger, real estate will always appreciate. It seems to assume a world where nothing ever runs out. But we are running out of credit here. Card is maxed.

Hopefully the problems with Greece will be contained. Hopefully the EU will get its act together, the Greeks tighten their belts and work out how to change the way they run their economy. Hopefully.

Yes, what is happening in Greece (and in Portugal, and now, in Spain) is an object lesson in what Maggie Thatcher meant when she said that the problem with socialism is that it eventually runs out of other people's money. These countries simply cannot afford to retire workers on full pensions at the age of 50 almost on request. No country can. The chickens have come home to roost. That's all. They are now trying to change their economy, hence riots in the street by those who have been taught to think that absurd social programs are an entitlement. It is now happening in America too. On the surface America is a wealthy country, but give Obama a few more years and he will change that too. He will also run out of other people's money. (It has nothing to do with Malthus, and all to do with the kind of attitude about government shared by the Greeks,,and now, by many Americans). It is convenient to think that we are in the hands of impersonal forces beyond our control, I know, but as John Donne put it so well such a long time ago, "We are our own executioners".

@jeeprs,

But Greek rorting of the payroll and tax evasion are only part of it. The other part is financial deregulation and tax cuts brought about by Thatcher, Reagan and Bush. All this bollocks about 'trickle down' and 'supply side' economics is just an excuse for the rich to get richer and the rest of the world to get screwed. Many of the chickens that are coming home to roost everywhere were hatched under conservative governments. Now to add to our woes the same right-wing kleptocracy has mounted a global scare campaign about the necessity of reducing our carbon footprint to we will have to deal with catastrophic climate change as well as financial armageddon. The only reason the Republicans will agree to reign in the robber barons of Wall Street is because they know if they don't they will get a hiding in November. Otherwise they would just give them complete carte blanche.

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;158056 wrote:

But Greek rorting of the payroll and tax evasion are only part of it. The other part is financial deregulation and tax cuts brought about by Thatcher, Reagan and Bush. .

We are talking about Greece aren't we? Not about Britain, or the United States. So what have Thatcher, Reagan and Bush to do with the price of eggs? Greece is going bankrupt on account of its insane socialism. No country could possibly afford its entitlements. It is not the rioting that is the problem. It is the theory of government. The rioting is the consequence of the forced lessening of entitlements which are unaffordable. Watch Portugal and Spain next.

@jeeprs,

What I'm worried about is that this will turn out to be an argument about which end of the boat is leaking. It doesn't really matter which end of the boat is leaking. We're all in the boat, and if it sinks, we'll go with it.

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;158089 wrote:

What I'm worried about is that this will turn out to be an argument about which end of the boat is leaking. It doesn't really matter which end of the boat is leaking. We're all in the boat, and if it sinks, we'll go with it.

It does matter, because as George Santayana said, those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. It is said that one definition of "insanity" is to insist on doing the same thing over and over again, even when you know it doesn't work. The boat need not sink unless holes are intentionally drilled into it. Here. the man with the biggest drill is Obama. And he is drilling away.

@jeeprs,

Today I was stuck in the traffic because there was a demostartion about the same things as in Greece. Here in Quebec, we are not socialist, still our gov't must cut on education, health, retirements, it's the same thing all over the world. I am not Marxist but I see that Marx had it right about the consoladation of capitalism.

@jeeprs,

I give Obama 5 stars, myself. He inherited a couple of wars he didn't start, the largest budget deficit in history, and a financial crisis caused by capitalist recklessness. He has actually managed to start turning these disasters around at least to some extent. THe problem is that the US has drifted so far to the right that they view centrists as communist. Obama is a centrist, as am I, and we are thought of as communists by the right wing. We are not the extremists here.

But really it is all beyond partisan politics. On Sept 17th 2008 the world came very close to 'financial collapse'. Nobody seems to recognise this. What would have happened? Why, you would have got up one morning, and all the banks would be closed. There would be no money.

Think about that. That is what the world is trying to fend off. It is not Greek, Spanish, or American - it is the end of the capitalist economic model, and if it does fall over, it will not have been brought about by communism. Communism is already dead. Capitalism will have eaten itself.

@polpol,

polpol;158105 wrote:

Today I was stuck in the traffic because there was a demostartion about the same things as in Greece. .

I suppose, then, that you are spending too much on these programs too. Canada is more socialist than the United States, but we are catching up (tempis) so don't fret. What does one do when one overspends? You cut down on spending. What is more obvious?

---------- Post added 04-29-2010 at 07:39 PM ----------

jeeprs;158106 wrote:

I give Obama 5 stars, myself. He inherited a couple of wars he didn't start, the largest budget deficit in history, and a financial crisis caused by capitalist recklessness. He has actually managed to start turning these disasters around at least to some extent. THe problem is that the US has drifted so far to the right that they view centrists as communist. Obama is a centrist, as am I, and we are thought of as communists by the right wing. We are not the extremists here.

But really it is all beyond partisan politics. On Sept 17th 2008 the world came very close to 'financial collapse'. Nobody seems to recognise this. What would have happened? Why, you would have got up one morning, and all the banks would be closed. There would be no money.

Think about that. That is what the world is trying to fend off. It is not Greek, Spanish, or American - it is the end of the capitalist economic model, and if it does fall over, it will not have been brought about by communism. Communism is already dead. Capitalism will have eaten itself.

Well, I'll give you that you are as centrist as Obama, anyway. Obama did not begin the deficit, however he did triple it. You can give him five stars for that, if you like. I wouldn't. No one accused Obama of Communism. Only of Socialism. Fabian Socialism. The most insidious kind.

@jeeprs,

He didn't cause, or rather preside over the start of, the Global Financial Crisis, which may yet be the ruin of all us. A very lrge part of the 'tripling' was required to prevent further catastrophe to the likes of you and me, while those who started it retire to their private islands.

What is that great saying about the way it was all done? Oh yes, I rememeber. "Privatise the profit, and socialize the losses". That is what the deficit has been tripled by.

But again, anyway, this is all a lot bigger than partisan politics. It is arguing about deckchairs on the titanic, if things don't turn around.

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;158111 wrote:

He didn't cause, or rather preside over the start of, the Global Financial Crisis, which may yet be the ruin of all us. A very lrge part of the 'tripling' was required to prevent further catastrophe to the likes of you and me, while those who started it retire to their private islands.

What is that great saying about the way it was all done? Oh yes, I rememeber. "Privatise the profit, and socialize the losses". That is what the deficit has been tripled by.

But again, anyway, this is all a lot bigger than partisan politics. It is arguing about deckchairs on the titanic, if things don't turn around.

No. It is about staying out of the way of icebergs. No, Obama did not cause the financial crisis. But his policies will create another one.

@jeeprs,

The causes of the forthcoming crisis go back a hundred years of more. And one of the reasons they are not being addressed is exactly because of partisan politics and the demonisation of the opposition.

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;158119 wrote:

The causes of the forthcoming crisis go back a hundred years of more. And one of the reasons they are not being addressed is exactly because of partisan politics and the demonisation of the opposition.

If they do, what does that matter? The thing is to stop causing them now. What you call "partisan politics" and "demonization of the opposition" is really just pointing out the causes of disaster so the disaster can be prevented from happening again. How can we think the disaster can be avoided when we do what will cause the disaster? Your view (like so many who think like you) is that we are helpless chips of wood being tossed about by overwhelming impersonal forces we can do nothing about. It is Marxism (and Hegelianism) all over again. And the attitude that ensures disaster. A kind of fatalism. Something I am sure you deny is true when it comes to your own individual life. You were taught this, for no one comes to it by himself.

@jeeprs,

It is not fatalism. It is recognizing that there is a kernel of truth in Marx's prediction about the ultimate demise of capitalism. I hate communism. I visited East Berlin as a teenager and know what it can do. I am not marxist in the least. But capitalism is destroying itself, especially the American model of it. It is based on the power of dollar before everything else. Many Americans have a mistaken idea of liberty in my view. They take it as the right to carry dangerous weapons or pursue profits at the expense of any concern for the social consequences. We are all going to suffer from it. We can either start to addess the problems, by trying to address its causes, as the US Senate is doing this week, or we can pretend it doesn't exist.

I think my actual political persuasion is small-l liberal. I value free enterprise, the expression of individual freedoms, the power of the market. But the whole system is skewed by multinational corporations who are effectively beyond the reach of elected representatives. If they want to plunder the environment, grow rich at taxpayers expense, make and sell massive weapons systems, and so on, who is going to stop them? THe replublican buddies will all be making commission on it. They won't lift a finger.

@jeeprs,

you know what? it wont matter when there isnt any water to drink...the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket. but right now, of all the problems facing my side of the world, the most basic is not enough water. that means death in a couple days. then it wont matter that we have no money and no electricity and no oil etc etc etc...

philosophy doesnt work on bread and butter issues-at least not for me. i havent been able to apply it there yet anyway.

i mean should i care if social security money is about to run out (i get social security) when no water has come from the city for three days? and even now, humanity is not beginning to wake up to working together and taking care of business. it is over.

sorry-depressed today.

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;158146 wrote:

It is not fatalism. It is recognizing that there is a kernel of truth in Marx's prediction about the ultimate demise of capitalism.

Exactly what kernel is that? So far as I can tell, it is Marxism that has gone to hell. Where do you suppose the Soviet Union is now? "The ash heap of history". That was what Marx predicted for capitalism.

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