Erring on the side of rashness.

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Deckard
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 12:34 am
Most will already be aware of Aristotle's method of determining virtue by finding the mean between excess and deficiency. But the mean is not always the middle. Perhaps the best example of this is the example of courage. Here's a relevant clip from Nichomean Ethics.

Quote:

VII: Let us apply this to individual facts. Too much confidence is rashness, too little is cowardliness. Too much liberality is prodigality, too little is meanness. Too much honour is vanity, too little is undue humility. Too much wittiness is buffoonery, too little is boorishness. Righteous indignation is the mean between envy and spite.

VIII: There are, then, three kinds of disposition- towards excess, towards deficiency and the virtuous mean. Each is, in a sense opposed to the others, as when the brave man seems rash to the coward, and cowardly to the rash man. But the mean is not necessarily the middle, for rashness is nearer to courage than is cowardice.
Is Aristotle right? If so, why is it that rashness is closer to courage than is cowardice?

Quote:
IX: It is not easy to be good, as it is no easy task to find the middle. Even finding the middle of a circle takes skill.
Anyone can get angry, or be generous, but to do so to the right person, to the right extent, at the right time with the right motive in the right way is not easy. It is best to aim at the mean by avoiding the vice which is most contrary to it, and guard against the vices to which we are more inclined. Especially, we must guard against pleasure, because pleasure cannot be judged impartially.
Erring on the side of rashness is in fact the opposite of erring on the side of caution but according to Aristotle it is to be preferred.

Now the challenge I would like to make to you all by starting this thread is to actually find that mean called courage and not merely to demonstrate the many ways we can err on the side of rashness. Are you up to that challenge?
 
wayne
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 02:18 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;156996 wrote:
Most will already be aware of Aristotle's method of determining virtue by finding the mean between excess and deficiency. But the mean is not always the middle. Perhaps the best example of this is the example of courage. Here's a relevant clip from Nichomean Ethics.

Is Aristotle right? If so, why is it that rashness is closer to courage than is cowardice??


I don't know what measure he is using to determine that rashness is closer to courage. It seems that he is saying that courage is the mean, rashness the extreme. That courage is closer to the rashness end of the scale.

I would have to agree that courage appears to be closer to rashness than cowardess.

Deckard;156996 wrote:
Erring on the side of rashness is in fact the opposite of erring on the side of caution but according to Aristotle it is to be preferred.

Now the challenge I would like to make to you all by starting this thread is to actually find that mean called courage and not merely to demonstrate the many ways we can err on the side of rashness. Are you up to that challenge?


I actually don't think that courage is the mean. Rather courage is the exception, the extra mile, so to speak. The mean would be something along the line of living perfectly for self, maximum tolerable risk to realize maximum personal gain.

Courage is a step above the mean, greater risk ,weighed against greater, less personal, gain.

Virtue is measured by one's willingness to go that extra step, beyond self. To risk more than the mean of our personal benefit.

I think we can measure virtue by finding the mean, but virtue is not the mean. Courage = Virtue, courage is niether the mean.

Virtue = Exception to the mean.
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 06:44 am
@Deckard,
It makes sense to me. The difference between courage and rashness is pretty slim. If you think about your standard war movie:

Cowardice: guy who freezes up and isn't even functioning as a soldier
Courage: most of the guys, fighting and moving through the streets
Rashness: sort of a careless courage, they don't quite bother to duck enough and get blown away

Rashness is clearly closer to courage than cowardice in this example.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 06:53 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;156996 wrote:
Most will already be aware of Aristotle's method of determining virtue by finding the mean between excess and deficiency. But the mean is not always the middle. Perhaps the best example of this is the example of courage. Here's a relevant clip from Nichomean Ethics.

Is Aristotle right? If so, why is it that rashness is closer to courage than is cowardice?

Erring on the side of rashness is in fact the opposite of erring on the side of caution but according to Aristotle it is to be preferred.

Now the challenge I would like to make to you all by starting this thread is to actually find that mean called courage and not merely to demonstrate the many ways we can err on the side of rashness. Are you up to that challenge?


As Barry Goldwater said in his nomination speech, "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue". And Aristotle also pointed out that there cannot be any moderation in certain actions. You cannot be moderate in committing murder, for instance. Even one murder is too much.

I believe, too, that Aristotle held that courage (and all the virtues) are relative to the person and circumstances. Courage in a scholar is not the same as courage in a warrior. The manifestation and degree has to be different.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 03:18 pm
@kennethamy,
Thanks for your comments. It's strange, I think I've been equating rashness with haughtiness or over-prideful behavior but that is simply not what the word means. Or rather I have made too much of the connection between rashness and pridefulness.

To be rash is not necessarily to be over-prideful though sometimes this is the case.

Do you think there is some important connection between rashness and haughtiness and an excess of pride?
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 03:37 pm
@Deckard,
Deckard;157241 wrote:

Do you think there is some important connection between rashness and haughtiness and an excess of pride?

Devil may care?
Unconsequential?
No furture?
Hold no belief that they will die?
Death is not their concern, life is?
Over appreciative of life?

I am not sure it is important but this they have in common.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 03:43 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;157253 wrote:

Over appreciative of life?

I am not sure it is important but this they have in common.


I'm not sure about the last one. It seems that cowards are more prone to an over appreciation of life in that they seek to preserve it even when duty and honor demand that it be risked.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 05:41 pm
@Deckard,
Deckard;157241 wrote:
Thanks for your comments. It's strange, I think I've been equating rashness with haughtiness or over-prideful behavior but that is simply not what the word means. Or rather I have made too much of the connection between rashness and pridefulness.

To be rash is not necessarily to be over-prideful though sometimes this is the case.

Do you think there is some important connection between rashness and haughtiness and an excess of pride?


I don't think so. Children are often rash because they are not able to think consider the consequences of their actions. But it is not because they are overly-proud. You may be thinking of those like Homer's Achilles whose rashness was prompted by pride. But I don't think that is typical.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 05:49 pm
@Deckard,
Our Queen Wilhelmina had to be forced on a boat to England. Her sense of duty and honor were 19e century. First WW her cousin did not in vade Holland. Next week we celebrate End WW II still German Ambassador is not welcom in Dam-square Amsterdam.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 06:03 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;157307 wrote:
Our Queen Wilhelmina had to be forced on a boat to England. Her sense of duty and honor were 19e century. First WW her cousin did not in vade Holland. Next week we celebrate End WW II still German Ambassador is not welcom in Dam-square Amsterdam.


Are you saying that the queen was rash for not boarding the ship? And what has this to do with the fact that Germany did not invade Holland in the First World War? What is this all about?
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 06:21 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;157316 wrote:
Are you saying that the queen was rash for not boarding the ship? And what has this to do with the fact that Germany did not invade Holland in the First World War? What is this all about?


She was rash because she wanted to stay in Holland. She was sure her cousin Wilhelm II would stop the Germans from invading. Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden was neutral in 1914 .
 
Grayshepherd
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 10:41 pm
@kennethamy,
Find the mean that is courage, which is located between rashness and cowardice.
Each of these words is used to describe a particular action an individual makes. That being said these words are none measureable quantities and as such the only way to apply them to an action is by opinion. And the opinion that does apply them to a given action has been shaped by its own experiences. Which means that thee different opinions could view the same action as rash, courageous, and cowardly.
So in order to find a scale to measure an action, we must find a scenario that produces outcomes that are definitively one of the three. For example "there is a gap between to cliffs, an individual is on one side and wishes to get to the other. The rash man runs to the gap and leaps. The courageous man assess the distance judges it as reachable and leaps. The coward assess the gap believes he can make it but refuses to try."
So it seems the proof that courage is the mean between Rashness and cowardice is this. To appraise a situation and determine that success is probable and to act in an effort to achieve that success, because the rash man will never appraise the situation and the coward will never act.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 11:18 pm
@Grayshepherd,
Grayshepherd;157392 wrote:
Find the mean that is courage, which is located between rashness and cowardice.
Each of these words is used to describe a particular action an individual makes. That being said these words are none measureable quantities and as such the only way to apply them to an action is by opinion. And the opinion that does apply them to a given action has been shaped by its own experiences. Which means that thee different opinions could view the same action as rash, courageous, and cowardly.
So in order to find a scale to measure an action, we must find a scenario that produces outcomes that are definitively one of the three. For example "there is a gap between to cliffs, an individual is on one side and wishes to get to the other. The rash man runs to the gap and leaps. The courageous man assess the distance judges it as reachable and leaps. The coward assess the gap believes he can make it but refuses to try."
So it seems the proof that courage is the mean between Rashness and cowardice is this. To appraise a situation and determine that success is probable and to act in an effort to achieve that success, because the rash man will never appraise the situation and the coward will never act.


The courageous man fears only those things that should be feared and since there are far fewer things worthy of fear than there are things not to be feared the mean of courage falls closer to rashness than it does to cowardliness.

Perhaps this is similar to what you are saying Grayshepherd.

Yet courage is also about overcoming fear. Could it be said that the rash man chooses to ignore all fear even though he feels it? Whereas the courageous man succombs only to those things which should be feared? This doesn't seem quite right to say for it is not only the rash that run into the fray despite insurmountable odds; the courageous make this supreme sacrifice as well.

The courageous man is a man of dignity. Plato or Aristotle said something like: For the courageous man the fear of the loss of honor or the loss of dignity is greater than fear of death. Whereas the cowardly man fears death and perhaps other things more than he fears losing his dignity. The rash man may sacrifice his life (or some other valuable thing) in a situation where his dignity was not truly at stake. It might be said that the rash man fears losing his dignity too much or thinks it is threatened when in fact it is not - which is to say, when it comes to honor and dignity, he errs on the side of caution.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2010 12:16 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;157322 wrote:
She was rash because she wanted to stay in Holland. She was sure her cousin Wilhelm II would stop the Germans from invading. Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden was neutral in 1914 .


Well, maybe she was rash. Maybe she was brave. I know that The Netherlands remained neutral during the 14-18 war. The German Kaiser escaped to The Netherlands after Germany's defeat, and remained there in exile until his death.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2010 01:55 am
@kennethamy,
Also we gave asylum tp his son but he got back to Duitsland as we call it. We still do not invited German ambassador to National Memerial.

Staat de Nederlanden is not the same as Koninkrijk der Nederlanden. Former colonies are not mentioned. The East Indies have separate Memorail Day and the West Indisch celebrate abolishment of slavery. A nice party every year on Suriname-square.
 
 

 
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