Memes

Get Email Updates Email this Topic Print this Page

Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Fri 26 Feb, 2010 01:23 am
@Scottydamion,
I start to remember the book I read years ago. Imitation of behaviour is so common, think of fashion, populair culture and politics. Like with genes there is a possibility a mneme changes over time. American ideas about democracy are different than those of the Athenians in the time of Pericles...

Not so different since they used the treaures of the Delos League to pay for the rebuilding of the Acropolis. This left Athens without allies in the Spartan war and defeat followed and the democratic experiment failed after one generation.

Furthermore Athens democracy was based on the concept of free man. Landowners, potters, traders... I wonder if the modern salary-man would qualify to vote. I think the mneme took a demotic turn.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 26 Feb, 2010 01:26 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;132710 wrote:
I start to remember the book I read years ago. Imitation of behaviour is so common, think of fashion, populair culture and politics. Like with genes there is a possibility a mneme changes over time. American ideas about democracy are different than those of the Athenians in the time of Pericles...

Not so different since they used the treaures of the Delos League to pay for the rebuilding of the Acropolis. This left Athens without allies in the Spartan war and defeat followed and the democratic experiment failed after one generation.


That book wouldn't have been Picture This, by Joseph Heller? In any case, Picture This is a great book that often compares Athens to America.
 
prothero
 
Reply Fri 26 Feb, 2010 01:36 am
@Scottydamion,
It may well be, that in human societies and cultures, that our social memes have more significance and importance in our idividual survival and procreation than our underlying genetics and that changes in genetic frequency are secondary not primary. It may not be just selfish genes that come to dominate but those inadvertenly carried by the members of the dominate culture. Increased gene freqency does not necessarily mean better genes or superior genes just genes lucky enough to be carried by members of the surviving culture. ie. the culture with the best cultural memes. Cultural and social memes may be the more dominant influence in human evolution.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Fri 26 Feb, 2010 01:47 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;132712 wrote:
That book wouldn't have been Picture This, by Joseph Heller? In any case, Picture This is a great book that often compares Athens to America.


Thanx to the title of the book. I'll start with Face of a Hero, Le petit Prince and something from his friend Vonnegut.

:bigsmile:
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 26 Feb, 2010 01:59 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;132718 wrote:
Thanx to the title of the book. I'll start with Face of a Hero, Le petit Prince and something from his friend Vonnegut.

:bigsmile:


I loved Catch 22, but Picture This was more engrossing. It's more of an a history book than a piece of fiction, but then he does concentrate more on essence than accident, and more on interpretation than raw data. Of course that's why it's such a good book. Your locality is also featured.

Quote:

Picture This is a 1988 novel from Joseph Heller, the satiric author of the acclaimed Catch-22.
The novel is an eclectic historical journey across three periods of history, all connected by a single painting: Rembrandt van Rijn's Aristotle Contemplating a Bust of Homer. With constant reflections between the different time levels, we jump back and forth between the time of Aristotle, Rembrandt and Heller: the Golden Age of Athens, the brief 17th century golden age of Holland, and the golden age of the USA.
 
Emil
 
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2010 01:26 am
@Scottydamion,
As for Susan B. I have her book on memes but I haven't read it. I started reading it but didn't finish. Don't recall why.
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:10 am
@prothero,
prothero;132714 wrote:
It may well be, that in human societies and cultures, that our social memes have more significance and importance in our idividual survival and procreation than our underlying genetics and that changes in genetic frequency are secondary not primary. It may not be just selfish genes that come to dominate but those inadvertenly carried by the members of the dominate culture. Increased gene freqency does not necessarily mean better genes or superior genes just genes lucky enough to be carried by members of the surviving culture. ie. the culture with the best cultural memes. Cultural and social memes may be the more dominant influence in human evolution.


Agreed.

Although in many ways they are anti-philosophy, since they are basically ideas we accept without examining them. I think a lot can be gained from identifying memes and cross-examining them.

I'm thinking of memes like "tattoo on lower back = she's a tramp".
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:36 am
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;134438 wrote:
Agreed.

Although in many ways they are anti-philosophy, since they are basically ideas we accept without examining them. I think a lot can be gained from identifying memes and cross-examining them.

I'm thinking of memes like "tattoo on lower back = she's a tramp".


I guess I think of memes having a unit equal to a sentece, instead of words.

So in that sense it may be anti-philosophy, because it examines the sentence as a whole, but one could still dissect the sentence into its parts. Maybe this addition of scale allows for a further branching of the unit "word" into the unit "sentence" to further research and understanding of society?
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:48 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;134456 wrote:
I guess I think of memes having a unit equal to a sentece, instead of words.

So in that sense it may be anti-philosophy, because it examines the sentence as a whole, but one could still dissect the sentence into its parts. Maybe this addition of scale allows for a further branching of the unit "word" into the unit "sentence" to further research and understanding of society?


Examination of the sentence would certainly lead to understanding. But these are more "viral" ideas that we don't consider. That's what makes them unphilosophical--we often accept them without examining them.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:52 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;134456 wrote:
I guess I think of memes having a unit equal to a sentece, instead of words.


Perhaps one problem w/ memes is that they are represented with discourse, which is perfectly digital, as hard science tends to be. How do we exactly frame a meme? (de-fine)

Memes would be soft science? (Not that soft science is bad...)
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:57 am
@Emil,
Emil;133476 wrote:
As for Susan B. I have her book on memes but I haven't read it. I started reading it but didn't finish. Don't recall why.


I did read it. Since I did not take any other book to the beaches of Ibiza it was the only interessting reading material I had. I thought she would explain things better, but I have the impression she lost her thread half-way the book. Not a good writer; she hardly grasped the idea. You didn't miss much.
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:58 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;134464 wrote:
Perhaps one problem w/ memes is that they are represented with discourse, which is perfectly digital, as hard science tends to be. How do we exactly frame a meme? (de-fine)

Memes would be soft science? (Not that soft science is bad...)


Evolution would also seem to be a soft-science, but I think we can still find useful information about which memes survive. I think that information helps to tell us something about what we are receptive to, and possibly how that has changed throughout history. The idea of a meme might help connect what feeds our intuition to what our intuition feeds.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:12 am
@Scottydamion,
Hardly. I wonder which meme would account for Past Life Memories, and what its medium might be? (I would love to ask Dawkins that....)
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:15 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;134475 wrote:
Hardly. I wonder which meme would account for Past Life Memories, and what its medium might be? (I would love to ask Dawkins that....)


Maybe the meme that hypnotism can bring out such memories, combined with the meme of reincarnation...that's probably what he'd say.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:17 am
@Scottydamion,
Yes...but how does the memory get from one to another life? That is the tricky bit for a materialist, isn't it? Anyway, I know, wildly off topic, I will desist.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:22 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;134468 wrote:
Evolution would also seem to be a soft-science, but I think we can still find useful information about which memes survive.


It seems to me that there is always a soft element in which the hard math core is embedded. But isn't evolutionary science able to more exactly measure it's object?

Don't get me wrong. I think the meme notion is fascinating.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:28 am
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;134438 wrote:
Agreed.

Although in many ways they are anti-philosophy, since they are basically ideas we accept without examining them. I think a lot can be gained from identifying memes and cross-examining them.

I'm thinking of memes like "tattoo on lower back = she's a tramp".


Before we can have a discussion on the subject, I want to clarify something bugging me. In Dutch we use Greek word Mneme, with a reference to the mother of the Muzes. The word meme/o stems from the Vulgar Latin language and evolved to words like memory & me-mente mori.

A Mneme is very much more a-life ! A Mneme can be a word (Peace),
an exclamation (God bless US) or a written text (UN Charter, various constitutions, religious writings). Mnemes are all around us out-side of Plato's Cave.

In the Dutch language we also use the Word meme; it can mean Mother, Wetnurse (RO&RE), mothersbreast or a wining old man.
We only use it in the Frisian meaning.

Now I come to think of it: it's also paers of the word me-kkeren which small animals like lam do when their thirsty. Modern use is to describe peope who have all-ways something to complain.:Glasses:

---------- Post added 03-02-2010 at 12:31 AM ----------

jeeprs;134481 wrote:
Yes...but how does the memory get from one to another life? That is the tricky bit for a materialist, isn't it? Anyway, I know, wildly off topic, I will desist.

With a Viral sentence some would hope.
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:37 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;134483 wrote:
It seems to me that there is always a soft element in which the hard math core is embedded. But isn't evolutionary science able to more exactly measure it's object?

Don't get me wrong. I think the meme notion is fascinating.


Evolution has more concrete "carriers", and DNA is a more concrete form of "meaning".

This makes it easier to track, but in the historical sense differences between species are an approximation of the number of mutations after they branched from a common ancestor.

Memes may originate from a "common thinker", but it would be very difficult to track all of the mutations of that original meme back to that thinker without the meme being written down. So consider pre-written language comparable to the history of mutation before we were able to sequence genomes.

Comparing Catholics to Jews without a record of history is kind of like comparing species without the fossil record. We can tell how many mutations separate them, but not when or if they are of common ancestry.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:54 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;134489 wrote:
Evolution has more concrete "carriers", and DNA is a more concrete form of "meaning".

This makes it easier to track, but in the historical sense differences between species are an approximation of the number of mutations after they branched from a common ancestor.

Memes may originate from a "common thinker", but it would be very difficult to track all of the mutations of that original meme back to that thinker without the meme being written down. So consider pre-written language comparable to the history of mutation before we were able to sequence genomes.

Comparing Catholics to Jews without a record of history is kind of like comparing species without the fossil record. We can tell how many mutations separate them, but not when or if they are of common ancestry.

Arabs and Israelians and geneticly more alike...
 
 

 
Copyright © 2022 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.02 seconds on 10/07/2022 at 10:55:05