My goals and our goals.

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Deckard
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 12:57 am
I think that when most of think of goals we think of personal goals. Group goals are usually secondary if they exist at all. Even when we work as a team we are usually really only team oriented insofar as our personal goals coincide with those of the team.

Having a family is perhaps an exception to this rule; spouses make sacrifices for each other; parents make sacrifices for their children and occasionally children make sacrifices for their parents; friends and siblings occasionally make sacrifices for each other. Yet this seems to be the limit for most of us.

Can anyone honestly say that they have goals that extend beyond this limit? I think professions that involve education and scientific research, perhaps the medical profession, perhaps the military, perhaps the arts, are sometimes orientated more in this direction.

Does anyone honestly think more in terms of our goals than in terms of my goals? I'm interested in making that shift and I am looking for advice.

(removed the bit about religious traditions and superstition.)
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 01:00 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;130908 wrote:
I think that when most of think of goals we think of personal goals. Group goals are usually secondary if they exist at all. Even when we work as a team we are usually really only team oriented insofar as our personal goals coincide with those of the team.

Having a family is perhaps an exception to this rule; spouses make sacrifices for each other; parents make sacrifices for their children and occasionally children make sacrifices for their parents; friends and siblings occasionally make sacrifices for each other. Yet this seems to be the limit for most of us.

Can anyone honestly say that they have goals that extend beyond this limit? I think professions that involve education and scientific research, perhaps the medical profession, perhaps the military, perhaps the arts, are sometimes orientated more in this direction.

Does anyone honestly think more in terms of our goals than in terms of my goals? I'm interested in making that shift and I am looking for advice.

(Try not to get all spiritual about your advice if you can help it. I recognize that religious traditions old and new, east and west point in a similar direction but I'm looking for other less superstitious approaches.)


Hockey? Football?
 
Deckard
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 01:36 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;130909 wrote:
Hockey? Football?


Of those two, I'd go with hockey, but I'd rather play baseball.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 02:42 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;130908 wrote:

Can anyone honestly say that they have goals that extend beyond this limit?


This is tricky. A writer is vain no doubt but he wants his writing to please. Is this a case of overlap? Chris Farley loved his audience because they loved him because he loved them? And so on?

I think we are hardwired for sympathy, and hardwired even to give. But I agree that the my-goals seem to dominate, excepting this possibility of overlap.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 04:23 am
@Deckard,
My goal is not to characterise spirituality as superstition. I am doing OK with it. If you want any tips let me know.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:12 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;130970 wrote:
My goal is not to characterise spirituality as superstition. I am doing OK with it. If you want any tips let me know.


What is wrong with spirituality being superstition? Perhaps superstition is the wrong word, but the way I see it, spirituality is the placebo for life. It has no medical documentation that is substantial but there are obviously psychological and even physiological effects from spirituality. Or maybe spirituality is the result of psychological or physiological differences.

I just read this article on patients which had brain tumors removed. A study conducted on the before and after effects as well as the location and severity of the tumors. Each patient was given a standard evaluation check list of how they felt about certain elements of their lives. Like how connected they felt towards people in general and other such questions. The results indicated that those who had tumors removed from the posterior area of their brain exhibited heightened spirituality after their operations where as those who had anterior portions of their brains removed exhibited a reduction in their spirituality. They also included other such behavioral and emotional shifts as well but I found the spirituality shift most interesting.
 
Infovore
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:13 am
@Deckard,
Ah. Nice.

I think group goals do exist, on a first level case, depending on your position on the food chain. I agree with you on the fact that no one hardly ever takes up a goal that does not provide any form of beneficial reward for them. Even charity work indirectly benefits people per individual basis, however straining, there is gain to it.

Quote:
Can anyone honestly say that they have goals that extend beyond this limit?


Unintentionally, yes, everyone does. Despite not knowing of it. Doing something and being a figure/statistic in society as a whole makes everything impersonal. No matter the motivation. Since one cannot exclude themselves from society, therefore nothing becomes impersonal however personal. Even though we are all ignorant of that fact when we make decisions, you are part of a bigger process than yourself. Gaining money leads to spending it, etc, a continous cycle that everyone is trapped in. Everyone gains from everyones goal. Some economy-like value to it.

Eg: My goal for being on this forum is for personal intellectual growth, but I cannot achieve that without someone posting a topic that provokes my thoughts (And theirs too). That goal may be personal, but its not exclusive.

So I do not think you can make a shift towards "our" from "my" unless you have a personal motivation.

Good discussion. Very interesting.

Cheers.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:19 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;130976 wrote:
What is wrong with spirituality being superstition? Perhaps superstition is the wrong word, but the way I see it, spirituality is the placebo for life. It has no medical documentation that is substantial but there are obviously psychological and even physiological effects from spirituality. Or maybe spirituality is the result of psychological or physiological differences.


So if spirituality is a placebo for life, what are placebos a placebo for, and how come they work so well?

Krumple;130976 wrote:
I just read this article on patients which had brain tumors removed. A study conducted on the before and after effects as well as the location and severity of the tumors. Each patient was given a standard evaluation check list of how they felt about certain elements of their lives. Like how connected they felt towards people in general and other such questions. The results indicated that those who had tumors removed from the posterior area of their brain exhibited heightened spirituality after their operations where as those who had anterior portions of their brains removed exhibited a reduction in their spirituality. They also included other such behavioral and emotional shifts as well but I found the spirituality shift most interesting.


If you liked that, you're going to love this Home - My Stroke of Insight

---------- Post added 02-22-2010 at 10:28 PM ----------

actually - that first question I asked, does not make a lot of sense, now I read it.

But I am still very interested by the placebo effect. Although understanding it is not a life goal so I'll shuddup now.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 06:38 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;130922 wrote:
Of those two, I'd go with hockey, but I'd rather play baseball.


No goals in baseball. Goals in football and in hockey.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:37 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;130970 wrote:
My goal is not to characterise spirituality as superstition. I am doing OK with it. If you want any tips let me know.

Yeah, not sure what I was thinking exactly. I'll change the OP. It does restrict the conversation too much.
 
mister kitten
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 05:58 pm
@Deckard,
Deckard;130908 wrote:
I think that when most of think of goals we think of personal goals. Group goals are usually secondary if they exist at all. Even when we work as a team we are usually really only team oriented insofar as our personal goals coincide with those of the team.

Having a family is perhaps an exception to this rule; spouses make sacrifices for each other; parents make sacrifices for their children and occasionally children make sacrifices for their parents; friends and siblings occasionally make sacrifices for each other. Yet this seems to be the limit for most of us.

Can anyone honestly say that they have goals that extend beyond this limit? I think professions that involve education and scientific research, perhaps the medical profession, perhaps the military, perhaps the arts, are sometimes orientated more in this direction.

Does anyone honestly think more in terms of our goals than in terms of my goals? I'm interested in making that shift and I am looking for advice.

(removed the bit about religious traditions and superstition.)

Most of my goals are short-term and involve school, chores, and such.
My long-term goals are harder to adjust in a day-to-day lifestyle. I try to make time for my long-term goals because they will stay long-term if nothing is done with them. Or they might vanish.

Group goals are different. Do business companies have one shared goal, or many different individual goals?
What is our goal, philosophyforum?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 08:18 pm
@Deckard,
I had a very vivid experience in my early teen years when I suddenly had a sense that there was something I had known, in some distant past, that was the most important thing to know and the one thing never to be forgotten. For that moment, I thought: what was that? When I knew that, I swore never to forget it - and now I've forgotten it.

The moment passed and life went on, but I still remember that experience. And I think the course my life has taken has been influenced by it. I think, now, it was what Plato called anamnesis. I don't know if it is any use to anyone else, but that is how it happened to me.

---------- Post added 02-23-2010 at 01:39 PM ----------

Incidentally I don't think the general question of purpose or goals in life is at all academic. Many people, I think, suffer from a sense of purposelessness. There is a pretty poignant article on suicide in today's Sydney Morning Herald which states, in part

Quote:
The extreme psychological manifestation of Western individualism is a disconnected, psychic desolation best described by the French sociologist Emile Durkheim as anomie, translated as ''without a name''.


Source
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 11:40 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;130978 wrote:
So if spirituality is a placebo for life, what are placebos a placebo for, and how come they work so well?

I like that. Placebo has its charms as a metaphor, but your question was a nice twist. A metaphor squared.

---------- Post added 02-23-2010 at 12:42 AM ----------

jeeprs;131264 wrote:


Incidentally I don't think the general question of purpose or goals in life is at all academic. Many people, I think, suffer from a sense of purposelessness. There is a pretty poignant article on suicide in today's Sydney Morning Herald which states, in part



Source


"Without a name." That's great. The uncreated. The ineffable. The under-erasure. The unnameable.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 12:06 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;131264 wrote:
I had a very vivid experience in my early teen years when I suddenly had a sense that there was something I had known, in some distant past, that was the most important thing to know and the one thing never to be forgotten. For that moment, I thought: what was that? When I knew that, I swore never to forget it - and now I've forgotten it.

The moment passed and life went on, but I still remember that experience. And I think the course my life has taken has been influenced by it. I think, now, it was what Plato called anamnesis. I don't know if it is any use to anyone else, but that is how it happened to me.


Actually, I have a sort of rhythm I hear sometimes. It fades in and out and I haven't figured out how to keep it around. It's a bit eerie. I'll start to hear people talking or birds chirping ping pong balls dropping with a sort of echo behind the sounds. It's not really pleasant or unpleasant just strange and it definitely seems to have something to do with some unplacable memory. Maybe something in the womb like my mother's heart beat but hearing a heartbeat doesn't seem to trigger it. Maybe something I heard before the womb.

To bring it back around to the OP, the idea of Our goals is almost as hard to grasp whereas the My goals" are much more clear. I don't think this is because Our goals are anything mysterious. Rather I think it is a matter of conditioning. We are discouraged from thinking in terms of Our goals in any meaningful way. We don't want to be like the body-snatchers or the Borg. When it comes to sports we leave Our goals on the field. When it comes to the corporate mission statement we kind of know those goals are a bunch of bullsh*t.

There are few times when Our goals become more clear. For example after a disaster or some great event. People just start working together to deal with the situation. Everyone is on the same page, on the same boat, everyone is in this together. Everyone feels connected. But when the crisis passes that comradery fades and we go off into our own little boxes again. Soon it is nothing but a memory.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 12:07 am
@Deckard,
well it depends. I don't think I would confuse anomie with the Tao. One point of that article was that our individualist society can easily leave people without a sense of purpose. It is ok for the successful or well-adjusted but it is also easy to fall through the cracks. In Australia there has been a real spate of suicides in regional areas which have been decimated by drought. Our identity depends so much on what we do.

---------- Post added 02-23-2010 at 05:08 PM ----------

I think Our goals are going to have to get a lot clearer, what with a population of 9 billion looming and the need to unprecedented cooperation on many fronts.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 12:22 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;131309 wrote:
I don't think I would confuse anomie with the Tao.


For me it wasn't that they were the same but that their descriptions were similar. It seems that only context differentiates anomie from the tao as both are (sometimes) named the unnameable or unnamed. Nonames's the game. Having No Name is the Name of my Game. ---It's like noticing that the disease and the cure have similar beards.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 01:15 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;131309 wrote:

I think Our goals are going to have to get a lot clearer, what with a population of 9 billion looming and the need to unprecedented cooperation on many fronts.

But how to go about making Our goals clearer? I think it is possible to make Our goal My goal. It would take a lot of discipline to follow through. It occurs to me that any of My goals that completely exclude any consideration of Our goals ends in solipsism.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 01:29 am
@Deckard,
But isn't it a lament for community, for society, and a sense of fellowship? I mean this is what the world used to be built around, wasn't it? I just have this sense of the world fragmenting into billions of pieces and loosing all coherence. After all the net sum of a great deal of so-called post-enlightenment philosophy really is the pursuit of self-interest. We have nothing beyond me, my family, my job, this moment, what I want, or maybe the country or the company.

Are you familiar with One Dimensional Man? I have never read the whole book, but I am familiar with the ideas in it, and I think it is a pretty accurate indictment of what ails us.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 01:59 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;131331 wrote:
But isn't it a lament for community, for society, and a sense of fellowship? I mean this is what the world used to be built around, wasn't it? I just have this sense of the world fragmenting into billions of pieces and loosing all coherence. After all the net sum of a great deal of so-called post-enlightenment philosophy really is the pursuit of self-interest. We have nothing beyond me, my family, my job, this moment, what I want, or maybe the country or the company.

I don't know if community has disappeared but rather we cannot see it. It's almost as if we all have blinders on...and perhaps saddles, reigns and stirrups as well.
 
 

 
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