Prisoners rights, Prisoners wrongs

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Reply Sat 6 Feb, 2010 09:57 pm
(the reason it is here instead of education or ethics or some other place is because as usuall it has turned into something else something more than the original question, so you may or not want to answer just the question or possibly just comment on what came after and because of the question, I am the king of general it sometimes seems)

Prisoners rights, Prisoners wrongs.

What rights do prisoners/criminals have that you think they should not be afforded?
i.e video games, television, smoking.

What rights do prisoners/criminals not have that you think they should be afforded?
i.e education, social interaction training.

And as always should some of these rights that would 'improve' them be enforced?
i.e enforced education, any education if they want to have a cigar after.
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It is peoples disconnection, unawareness, uneducation with other people that creates a criminal. Is it ignorance? I dont think it is ignorance, ignorance is almost innocence, you dont yet know the lie.

You dont understand others because you dont have a clue about yourself.

If one is aware of the other, not forced upon about other, even not forced upon the self is where people are taught before they learn that the other is as important as you, not more, not less, but you are made aware you are taught that you are not above or below any other. First lesson.
First lesson ever needed to be taught before we can learn is equality.
I am as good and as bad as you are.
You are as good and as bad as I am.
We are all just learning about how to love and be loved.

And that is what i think will bring peace on earth.
Be unto others as you would have them be unto you.
Be unto you as others would have you be unto them.

And if anyone should think and act as they are better or worse than you, just try to remember we are all born with a need to learn and be taught.
Fundamental action of what it is to be human is a need for learning, we do not survive unless we learn. We are sponges before we even know the human. But i think we do not survive if we do not teach also.

The blame of the uneducated is not with the pupil until they graduate and as we can see some never graduate because no one is willing to teach them.
Just remember that 'blame' should not be as a judgement, it is infact the solution.
Blame is knowing where things need to be fixed.
Blame shows us where the gaps are and where teachers need to be inserted for the particular blame that has been reached but not yet reasoned with.
Blame is what is wrong.
Something is wrong to be fixed.
How can you 'blame' something that you are not willing to show where they need to be corrected?
Correction is such a filthy word now-a-days. Probably because the correctors dont know what they are doing or do and wont spend the time to explain it to the area that needs the improvement of correction.

Do we ever forfeit the teacher that would not be just you?
(self taught can be massively over-rated)
Does being the criminal mean you are no longer valid to be taught to be other than the crime?

How can you expect someone to learn something when you dont know what you are teaching?

We 'should' never stop trying to teach where there needs to be known.
Something is missing then try at least try to show what it would be like to be full.
Again the first lesson,
I am not better or worse than you. Just needs more or less help.
You are not better or worse than me. Just needs more or less help.

We are simply (all to begin with) truthful beings,
It is the absence of truth where we invented the lie.
We do not choose i think to tell that first lie. Maybe all of them.
If you knew 'better' why wouldn't you?
Can one fail to be truthful? Even if they try?
We do NOT need the lie to live. It will eventually kill us.
We DO need the truth in order to survive. It will eventually bring us to life.

Why are we not teaching the truth?

Why are we not taught the truth?

We are all teachers and we are all pupils.

No one person knows 'better' than any other person knows how to live.
It is the 'better' used as such as status 'to be above and be beyond' the other that leads to us not trying to want to be alike, stops us wanting to learn, stops us wanting to be ourselves, for why would i want to be as someone who thinks they are 'better' than me?

Does this mean that we need to get rid of tests, competition, scale?
or does it mean everyone needs to be rewarded for their effort?

Do we need a prize to be better? or do we need to be better to be the prize? not just always the consolation?

A better self does not need to be at the expence of others worse.
A better self does however needs to be because of the other, see where we can so easily be confused by ourselves let alone by others?

A better for, not against.

This is where 'worth' is dangerous also when you compare it to theirs failings, compare it to others accountability or unaccountability. Comparing as a means to be worth more. Comparing the self not consolidating it, even just consoling the self is something that should not need to be learned.
Fisrt lesson again; I am worth as much as you are worth, you are worth as much as i am worth.
Trying to be worth something is for the other as much as for the self.
Self congratualtion does not exist.
If congratualtion 'should' ever be needed?
Worth although a measure 'should' be the reason the individual 'should' be great, pushing barriers the first of which is always met first met in the self, because it is the self individual that needs to do the work, needs to know there is something worth working forward.
Forward.
When did the worlds peoples get so lazy?
I hope our idleness is not our measure.
Is it lazy to lie? for i think it takes more strain than to tell the truth.
Full self recognition is the reason for worth and 'should' be what makes us to be as Christ, Mohammad (P.B.U.H) (peace be upon thy self) Buddah and many more, but not really enough more than first the self, (Who would you aspire to be as like?). I choose Christ as my arch but not that i wont take what ever other peoples and Gods have to offer me..
All more than human, not better more than, but worthy becasue they tried and try to be worth more so as to give it to you first before themselves.
Sacrifice 'should' be a gift not a consolation.
Gain for the giver upper as much if not more for the giver getter.
It is the 'more than human' that unfortunately scares people away from being themselves and as God, even more than God?
But if we were taught at the beginning that we are more than what confines us, capable of being, growth is achievable, worth and better are reachable, we are more than our mere prison cell, gives birth to the true freedom and for what that is worth,
'freedom' which is supposed to be a nothing more than a something, believe it or not.

Self recognition should not be for just the self, but more for the rest.
More of a self means more to give not more to get.
First lesson; There is always more than just your self, your self becomes always with the more than.

And my worth is only measurred by the worth that i can only have that i can give worth to you, to teach you and learn from you worth, to learn you and teach from you,
First lesson; that you have just as much to offer me as i have to offer you.
World peace is giving me to receive you, receiving me to give to you.
Teaching to learn, Learning to teach.

True love is to be happy by others happiness, others to be happy by my happiness.
The only thing love is good and true for is happiness.
The only thing happiness is good and true for is love.

We are born loving,
it is the lie, the miseducation, the interuption that distorts disfigures and derails love us and its original purpose and reason for being.
Love is meant for things.
Love is meant to be for us all.
We instilled with a need to love, but because we haven't been allowed to do and grow as we are 'meant' 'great' to do as we would with our natural goodness intact (better is a strengthened goodness, good should not need to be strengthed but because of the lie we now need to fight aginst an invented distortion away from what is real and natural) the disruption is where the need for love becomes dangerous and a lie is born of distorted need. This is due to the fact that the liar has learned how to from elsewhere otherwhere what it is to be wrong, being the only example available, even sometimes achievable?, being the only lesson available is where some people think they are being a truth, but are no more than a lie disguised.

We are not born liars, we learn it.

Criminals are the teachers and pupils of lies.

We must as truth teachers and pupils insits that liars need more teachers, more time and more love. Show them how it is done, else how can they ever know how to do for themselves?
God sometimes is not enough.

Can you unteach insanity, unteach the lived for lie?
We should not be trying to undo we should be trying to redo.
And you can only teach by showing someone something new.

First lesson;
We are doing it for our worth to be a reality, we are doing it for your reality to be worth.
Both the possible same, not impossible better not impossible worse.

We must be our own truth in order to be believed, we must be believed in order to be truth?
WE cannot be a lie, it just does not work, slave to your lies, freed by the truth.

Do lies destroy truth? or simply hide it?

We need to tell in order to be heard, we need to be heard in order to tell.

We all need to be loved (universal truth), we all therefore need to love.
It is the need here that is important, (need should not be important at all because needs 'should' be fulfilled),
need is a natural reflex,
love is as much as we can teach and learn,
the need is where the lesson plan comes in because it is now important where there ought be no need for importance, importance means that something is being wronged that needs to be righted, All ought be right.
Because it is a need means we need to get it, love by lesson plan because there are the distortions now along your way, love by lesson plan because some will want to take it form you without having to give it back to anything else, because they dont know how or why.

Shame we learned to lie, shame we then teach it. Is one a bigger shame than the other?
All we need to know is that to be loved to see love is to love to show love.

Nothing is free but that which we give away.

Is it then 'divine' to only ever give?
This is where i am not sure if we can be as God as a divinity.
It may then be a lie to be humanly divine?
Especially with the learned taught in hand lie.
Do we need anything more than the filling that is the love of God?
I would say in order to give love to somebody give a person love is to know how to receive it from somebody else from another person?
How would we know we were getting it from God if we didn't know what it was is?
Or our nature to love and be loved, to be truthful could stay as the example, could stay as the God given purity that is is first put inside us, undistorted, but the fact remains that our love exists outside us as much inside so we must learn what to do with the love more than just design, and the only way we can love is to be shown love, and even if God given we must somehow learn to know how to receive from God.
We are not born knowing God? Loving God? Even if we are born being love, but we are born knowing we need it before we know how we must give it.

Does God give love? Does God get love?

Is it now so hard to give love?
Even harder not to expect it back more than the what the wisdom you get from the giving?

You need more good truth love to make up for bad lie love.
Because we need it, no matter what we get even if we steal it we will still see this as love.
It is still 'love' even when bad because we need it and it is all we have come to know, to steal.
Re-education.
So dont boggart the good love, dont let it rest in you, let it out, show it, let it grow.
For love that is given grows more than any that is gotten.

We need to teach people to love true, not everyone is as true as you, what do you do? what do you do? Give it to me so I can give it to you.

We must just keep on loving learning teaching until we die,
imagine that, dying of or for true love.
To die of or for true love is something to truly be remembered for, something some might call true immortality.

World peace which means inner peace also would be achievable if true love existed.

Live Love Learn Teach.
World peace is reached.
Learn earn.
Teach reach.

Thanks for your time.
 
Lost1 phil
 
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 09:36 am
@sometime sun,
Actually, I think that was a blog Wink

We do the best we can with that which is known. Hence our (U.S.) prision system may seem to some to give our prisoners more rights then necessary - to others I'm sure it is the opposite.

Until we can know what works best for each individual prisoner it's the best we can do to do what is most right for the general population that fill our prisons.

If it is meant only to house and protect (both those on the inside and those on the outside) it seems to be doing a more than adequate job.

If it is meant to work towards insuring the prisoner has an adequate opportunity to become a productive member of our society upon his/her release, there is still a great deal to learn.

When life inside a prison offers more in the mindset of a criminal than life outside it would appear our prison system is a failure. It might cause some to think to "fix" would mean take away the comforts it offers.

Yet, you can not advocate taking away food, clothing, and shelter -- which to some is the bare minimum of rights -- and also what some criminals so not have ready excess to when released.

What of rehibalitation? -- Is it even possible?

Lots of words for what can simply be answers it's one of those danged if you do, and danged if you don't moments.

Lost1
 
VideCorSpoon
 
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 10:35 am
@Lost1 phil,
An interesting historical tidbit about this subject is that the exact time when prisoners were explicitly denied most rights (in the US) was in 1876. Virginia state inmates complained of the little rights they were afforded while still being American citizens. The Virginia state supreme court ruled that, "[the prisoner] is for the time being a slave of the state." That is a portion of the literal ruling in Ruffin v. Commonwealth. How interesting this is when you take the fact that any form of slavery is prohibited in the United States under the 13th amendments of the Constitution except Holt v. Sarver where it was ruled that was in fact wrong that prisoners were exposed to torture, brutality, and indifference to suffering (which is a violation of the 8th amendment). So it has not even been 50 years (41 years to be exact) that treating prisoners badly was even considered wrong.

So what right should prisoners/criminals should/should not be afforded? In my own opinion, I think that when you do commit a crime, you violate an implied contract between you, the state, and your society. I certainly do not subscribe to the mistreatment of prisoners by any means. But I support their incarceration. If anything, it is judged on an economical basis, where something must be paid for something taken. If a person steals something from another, an appropriate and predictable punishment should be given in response. But this is not an eye-for-an-eye thing though. It is debatable whether or not a murderer should be sentenced to death for taking another person's life. Though in some cases, it seems as though this is just retribution, it honestly is not an enlightened response. And honestly, not that I have anything against Sharia Law
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 05:16 pm
@Lost1 phil,
Lost1;125738 wrote:
Actually, I think that was a blog Wink

We do the best we can with that which is known. Hence our (U.S.) prision system may seem to some to give our prisoners more rights then necessary - to others I'm sure it is the opposite.

Until we can know what works best for each individual prisoner it's the best we can do to do what is most right for the general population that fill our prisons.

If it is meant only to house and protect (both those on the inside and those on the outside) it seems to be doing a more than adequate job.

If it is meant to work towards insuring the prisoner has an adequate opportunity to become a productive member of our society upon his/her release, there is still a great deal to learn.

When life inside a prison offers more in the mindset of a criminal than life outside it would appear our prison system is a failure. It might cause some to think to "fix" would mean take away the comforts it offers.

Yet, you can not advocate taking away food, clothing, and shelter -- which to some is the bare minimum of rights -- and also what some criminals so not have ready excess to when released.

What of rehibalitation? -- Is it even possible?

Lots of words for what can simply be answers it's one of those danged if you do, and danged if you don't moments.

Lost1


Make it hard, but make it worth something.
What is so wrong with showing someone their worth, even if the worth no longer belongs to them.
People should be made to prove they are worth something.

Discipline is the first thing any criminal must be taught.
Disciplined minds want to know more because they know how to learn, they can form a sentence to ask a question.
All learning is self discipline.
All understanding is self discovery.
Show what people are missing by giving them sight of it instead of blinding them from it.
Dont give it to them, make them want to go and get it.

All else fails Ultimate punishment is to know what you have lost and will never get back.

I dont see how education can ever be used for bad.
A more aware awake criminal is worth the risk.

We are forced to go to school, why aren't they forced to do so also, again and again if need be, no reward but to not be stupid anymore.
Regulate all their activities to be of an educational nature, i dont see how this can do wrong.
Physical exercise should be manditory as well as drug testing.

Educated fit people make better people, there i said it.
 
mister kitten
 
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 05:41 pm
@sometime sun,
This is all great stuff, but who's going to pay for it?
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 06:11 pm
@mister kitten,
mister kitten;125915 wrote:
This is all great stuff, but who's going to pay for it?

The armed forces.
Give them a medal if they earn it.
Let them know they can still be rewarded.
They can still win at something, win themselves.
Everyone is worth something.
If not, then they should be made to give blood, bone marrow,
and shown the lives their blood and marrow saves.
Everyone is worth something, you need to show it
sometimes we as society must insist that people do so.
Everything costs something.
Blood, sweat, tears, make them mop it up.
The system is not even geared towards restitution.
Restitution is not a bad word, it is an essential one.
We need to give to get a better society.
And we need to keep on giving until we get it.
We cant get it if we take it away, take it back.
You need to show people the world they will care for once they have seen it.
Even if they can never get it (all) back
they should be shown what they have missed.
Ultimate punishment, know what you have hurt.
Criminals dont know how to understand.
So bloody well teach them.
 
 

 
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