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Ur o Über?

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Consider the German words/prefixes Ur and the Über. If you had to chose one which one would you choose? True they are not exactly opposites nor mutually exclusive but I am nevertheless juxtaposing them as a dichotomous either/or. Which is most important to you? Which are you most likely to defend as valuable?

Ur is the original, the primal, the first.
For example Rousseau's noble savage is usually translated to German as "Gute Urmensch". Also, Goethe believe there was an Urpflanze or original plant from which all other plants took their pattern and Goethe spoke more generally of the study of Urphänomen or original phenomena as a basis for a new approach to science. Ur is about getting back to the original, the uncorrupted, the true form. Ur is about returning to the source.

Über means "over", the best, the dominant.
Of course the most important example of the Über is Nietszche's Übermensch. Über reigns over the rest. Über has entered American slang. There are now Übernerds and Überplayers and people can be Übersmart and Überhot. There can be no Über if there is no Unter (under) thus Über is necessarily hierarchical and competitive. Über is about progress and striving.

Über is at the other end of time from Ur. Ur is the past and Über is the future. Nowadays in common speech Urmensch means caveman and the same thing has happened in English connotations of the original man obviously we have evolutionary theory and archeology to blame or thank for that. However, Nietzsche's imagined man of the future is just as impossible, just as mythical and poetic, as Rousseau's imagined man of the past.

And what of Wisdom? Is Wisdom about getting back to the ancient original teachings or is Wisdom about the acquisition of power and some distant discovery? Is Wisdom more within the domain of Ur or Über?

If you had to make a choice, which would you preferÜ Ur or Über? Choose wisely.

@Deckard,

Hey, this makes me think of I poem I once wrote:

Der Mensch, uralte Rätselqual,
Vergöttlicht sich ein tausend Mal,
Doch kehrt zurück im Welt hinein
Um immer noch ein Mensch zu sein.

Immer Ur-, nimmer Über-. Is this even a real opposite?

@Deckard,

It seems that only in certain usage would one consider them opposites or mutually exclusive; under other perspectives, both have their place. I would not consider, for example, a discussion of Goethe's Urfaust interfering with that of Nietzsche's ubermensch, nor necessarily linking uber always to some future possibility: Goethe's "Über allen Gipfeln ist Ruh...."

I don't know about wisdom, but many philosophers have looked to the past for a better understanding of a problem. In politics, for example, both Hobbes and Rousseau developed different theories from looking at primitive man. Nietzsche looked to early Greece for an understanding of the origin of tragedy and employed a geneological method to understand how ethical words were used and their concepts came to be.

More recently, Heidegger continually looked to the Presokratics for a "purer" understanding of being unencumbered by 2000 years of philosophical "baggage," as it were, so being could be recaptured and rethought afresh.

@Catchabula,

Catchabula;118791 wrote:

Hey, this makes me think of I poem I once wrote:

Der Mensch, uralte Rätselqual,
Vergöttlicht sich ein tausend Mal,
Doch kehrt zurück im Welt hinein
Um immer noch ein Mensch zu sein.

Immer Ur-, nimmer Über-. Is this even a real opposite?

It's just something I'm trying. I don't know if its a real opposite or just my poor understanding of German. Urmensch and Ubermensch seem to be at opposites ends of history at least though not necessarily mutually exclusive in their qualities. I think these Mensches can be understood as the anthropomorphic representatives of two types of metaphysical systems. So I'm trying it out just to see what others think of it and where else the comparison may have already come up.

I know little to no German, I'm just fascinated by the language at the moment. Let me try to translate your poem. Please correct me if I miss the gist.

Man, the ancient and impossible riddle
He deifies himself a thousand times
Only to be thrown back into the world
Remaining all the while a man.

@Deckard,

Deckard;118775 wrote:

Consider the German words/prefixes Ur and the If you had to chose one which one would you choose? True they are not exactly opposites nor mutually exclusive but I am nevertheless juxtaposing them as a dichotomous either/or. Which is most important to you? Which are you most likely to defend as valuable?

Ur is the original, the primal, the first.
For example Rousseau's noble savage is usually translated to German as "Gute Urmensch". Also, Goethe believe there was an Urpflanze or original plant from which all other plants took their pattern and Goethe spoke more generally of the study of Urphänomen or original phenomena as a basis for a new approach to science. Ur is about getting back to the original, the uncorrupted, the true form. Ur is about returning to the source.

means "over", the best, the dominant.
Of course the most important example of the is Nietszche's . reigns over the rest. if there is no Unter (under) thus is necessarily hierarchical and competitive. is about progress and striving.

is at the other end of time from Ur. Ur is the past and is the future. Nowadays in common speech Urmensch means caveman and the same thing has happened in English connotations of the original man obviously we have evolutionary theory and archeology to blame or thank for that. However, Nietzsche's imagined man of the future is just as impossible, just as mythical and poetic, as Rousseau's imagined man of the past.

And what of Wisdom? Is Wisdom about getting back to the ancient original teachings or is Wisdom about the acquisition of power and some distant discovery? Is Wisdom more within the domain of Ur or ?

If you had to make a choice, which would you prefer? Ur or ? Choose wisely.

And please don't forget, Pilsner Urquel, an excellent German beer. No one would call it, "Oberquel".

@Deckard,

A very good translation, Deckard, thanks for the effort. Oh Kenneth, what about Asbach Uralt, that excellent german brandy? Ok ok, I admit it's off topic :bigsmile: .

@Catchabula,

Catchabula;118855 wrote:

A very good translation, Deckard, thanks for the effort. Oh Kenneth, what about Asbach Uralt, that excellent german brandy? Ok ok, I admit it's off topic :bigsmile: .

Yes. That too. Although, no German brandy, no matter how old, matches French cognac. And that is really off topic.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;118805 wrote:

And please don't forget, Pilsner Urquel, an excellent German beer. No one would call it, "Oberquel".

An American beer company would steal it, change the labels, and call it that out of spite. Of course, it wouldn't taste very good if it were an American beer.

@Leonard,

There is also Freud's Über-Ich. Does that make the Id the Ur-Ich? Yes, very much so.

@Leonard,

Leonard;118885 wrote:

An American beer company would steal it, change the labels, and call it that out of spite. Of course, it wouldn't taste very good if it were an American beer.

Has that happened?

@Deckard,

Does drinking make you feel more like you are returning to the mental state of the Urmensch or does it make you feel more like an Übermensch?

@kennethamy,

Deckard;
Wisdom is the horse we ride,
To be wise is to know the horse
what a horse does when it decides it is under direction,
what a horse will do when it decides over our direction,
Does the horse of wisdom have a choice?
as well as where all things are led from or toward.
But wisdom is not just a man comings froms and goings towards,
Wisdom is the horse we ride.

To the horse of wisdom can there be new birth, new reason, new direction?
Or is the horse of wisdom all there is to be or not be anything?
Is there a new way to ride the horse of wisdom?
Are we pretending when we think the horse of wisdom is to be a stallion?
Is a horse a horse or is a horse a stallion as well?
Can we breed the horse of wisdom into something that is not?
A horse of wisdom but not all that horse or wisdom there is?
Is the horse or wisdom something that can evolve and change?
Or will the horse of wisdom always be the horse of wisdom?

Would i could be the horse or the rider?
Would i be led?
Knowing being full, i know all there is to know?
Would i lead?
Thinking and asking all the while,
'i ride i am in control of myself as well as the horse of wisdom'
or
'the horse of wisdom is the rider of earth and in control of me'
Who is deluded the ridden or the rider?

Incase i am not being to clear (which i am not) i would be whatever i am at any given point, knowing when to concede to what the world knows better and more than me original design/desire and trusting that earths answer and leadings (the earth rarely misleads, that is what we do), but trying all the while to ask a question to be more, not more of myself (for that i already am) but more than others (for that i already am not), i can only think wisdom already has the answer to but has not as yet been asked and therefore proving i am better than my previous desire but leading onto the fulfillment of my original design to be better than you.
Am i a leader or am i led?
How can one ask this question when all they have they never had a choice over, but have the chance possition to be everything that that is possible to be.
The question only comes out properly, where am i leading myself? taking purchase of the self first is taking it away from others and then taking the only part of the journey possition we have any choice in, how do i encourage others to be better than me?

Sorry but not if i dont answer what you asked, best to answer the self first and get that out the way. Smile

---------- Post added 01-10-2010 at 02:22 AM ----------

Deckard;118894 wrote:

Does drinking make you feel more like you are returning to the mental state of the Urmensch or does it make you feel more like an Übermensch?

It may make you think you are an Ubermensch but like the idea it may be all in the head ego or delusion?

@sometime sun,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Woher_kommen_wir_Wer_sind_wir_Wohin_gehen_wir.jpg

Where Do We Come From? What Are We? Where are We Going?
Paul Guguin

---------- Post added 01-09-2010 at 08:35 PM ----------

sometime sun;118898 wrote:

Incase i am not being to clear (which i am not)

I'm not averse to more poetic forms of communication.

@Deckard,

Poetic form, not poetry!?

@sometime sun,

sometime sun;118898 wrote:

but trying all the while to ask a question to be more, not more of myself (for that i already am) but more than others (for that i already am not), i can only think wisdom already has the answer to but has not as yet been asked and therefore proving i am better than my previous desire but leading onto the fulfillment of my original design to be better than you.
Am i a leader or am i led?
How can one ask this question when all they have they never had a choice over, but have the chance possition to be everything that that is possible to be.
The question only comes out properly, where am i leading myself? taking purchase of the self first is taking it away from others and then taking the only part of the journey possition we have any choice in, how do i encourage others to be better than me?

sometime sun;118912 wrote:

Poetic form, not poetry!?

oughthttp://www.philosophyforum.com/community-forums/social-groups/thus-spoke-zarathustra-discussion-group/7246-zarathustra-group-three-metamorphoses.html

sometime sun;118898 wrote:

Deckard;
Wisdom is the horse we ride,
To be wise is to know the horse
what a horse does when it decides it is under direction,
what a horse will do when it decides over our direction,
Does the horse of wisdom have a choice?
as well as where all things are led from or toward.
But wisdom is not just a man comings froms and goings towards,
Wisdom is the horse we ride.

This is really great stuff sometimes sun. It took a second reading to realize it. Wisdom is the horse we ride. It brings all sorts of literary allusions to mind from the whipped horse in Raskolnikov's dream to the Houyhnhnms from Gulliver's travels. Also the oft told tale of Nietzsche and the whipped horse. Wisdom is the horse we ride. I like it very much.

@Deckard,

Deckard;118919 wrote:

oughthttp://www.philosophyforum.com/community-forums/social-groups/thus-spoke-zarathustra-discussion-group/7246-zarathustra-group-three-metamorphoses.html

Dont worry i'm getting there and will be there, and peace be upon you (not that one can bequeath peace, just glad you found it, uncovered it, hold it) , it is always good when we find peace with ourselves and peace with our meanings.
I would also add there is no mention of inspiration here, inspiration is surely a solo activity? Inspiration is surely an activation of both Ur and Uber?
Why just one or the other? why not both? why not more? or is that just greedy?

Deckard;118919 wrote:

This is really great stuff sometimes sun. It took a second reading to realize it. Wisdom is the horse we ride. It brings all sorts of literary allusions to mind from the whipped horse in Raskolnikov's dream to the Houyhnhnms from Gulliver's travels. Also the oft told tale of Nietzsche and the whipped horse. Wisdom is the horse we ride. I like it very much.

It is always worth more, worth something at all even, when someone else finds more some meaning in what you create all of their own connection connotation, all of their own will, and all of there own imagination, and gives it back, some might say they make it their own creation creature. Takes a little effort though sometimes dosen't it?
Thanks for your thanks, it is always good to know you have met with someone somewhere sometime.
Listening to Peter Gabriels 'here comes the flood'.
Should have i mentioned/imagined the saddle, bridle, sirrups and helmet? Smile

@sometime sun,

That didn't last long did it?:lol:PRAISE BE, thanks for that:lol:I really dont know when to quit do I?:lol:see!

@sometime sun,

sometime sun;118961 wrote:

That didn't last long did it?

Do you mean the quote? I didn't want it always at the bottom of every one of my posts. Few things stand up to that kind of repetition. I've run into the same problem with other quotes by more famous people. I still very much like the symbol of the horse as wisdom and wisdom as a horse.

@Deckard,

Deckard; Trust me when i say, i am laughing at myself, I got a little high there for a moment didn't I?:lol:that was just really funny.
You dont have to get the joke, it was a one-man punch-line:lol:

@sometime sun,

Just have to say another quick thank you, i have has a smile on my face all day long, i was really tickled.

And just because i laughed at myself does not mean i dont mean, question, solve every single word i said and more didn't say.

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