That's actually how it works. We only think we have control. Our mind makes all the decisions, and we can only watch.
Our mind tries to make the optimal decisions given the information it has.
If you don't believe it, think the other way around. What if we actually were free to make decisions that are not optimal? Wouldn't that be a evolutionary disadvantage?

EmperorNero said-"What if we actually were free to make decisions that are not optimal?"
I think not.

Meaning of optimal: most desirable or satisfactory

There are decisions that are not optimal being made right now and constantly being made. If all our(humankind) decisions were optimal there would be no wars, strife, poverty, murder etc., etc..
I think it is erroneous to think that we all make optimal decisions because we have evolved that way. As I stated above none of the ridiculous problems of society would exist if we autonomously thought optimally.

Well, not really. If it did, you would see clearly. When you think you are taking control and it will effort to obey what you command of it.



That's the sad part, actually. The mind would make optimal decisions if left alone. It works perfectly, yet it will strive to do what you command it to do or when you consciously think or question.



You are forcing a duality and that is confusing. To answer your question; no, yet it would be revolutionary or "revelational". To think it as a disadvantage indicates one trying to control the status quo which one feels "comfortable in".





I like the way you put that. Thinking not, you're thinking right through not effort on your part; piece of cake and you will be "universally linked to those of like mind" as it is all "un-conscious" like birds of a feather as they work together without even thinking about it. We are no different. It is human instinct all linked by one mind working efficiently, equitably, harmoniously, serendipitously all going in different directions and enjoying every minute of it. If an "unlike mind" enters into this realm, it will stand out also "un-consciously" as the like minds protect one another from "invasion" as the one who invades is running into barricades all over the place. These barricades will be detected by all the senses and react accordingly, naturally, yet unconsciously.



Yes. For you, as you, engage others who are being who they are, harmoniously, without a thought and without question or conflict, for questions are an indication of thinking about what one is "not" as they are looking for something to fill in the gaps. When you have faith in yourself, and it takes time, you will automatically tune in with those who have faith in themselves.

.

Of course.



Like an indoctrination or an orientation, huh! Like children learning from their mistakes. Optimally, once all in tune or most, at any rate, there would be no mistake for them to make as we finally learn who they really are in a forward continuum. Many are babes in a wood who cannot see the forest for the trees. Ha!

Thanks guys. I was so hoping someone would respond and my thanks for doing so. Now, ha, what do you think? :bigsmile:

William

You are defining what optimal means and then point out human behavior that does not fit that definition, to show that our behavior is not optimal. Obviously that only shows that your definition is incorrect.



---------- Post added 10-13-2009 at 08:05 PM ----------



I am having trouble understanding your post. I would ask you to elaborate and explain the assumptions you leave out some more.
Maybe keeping answers short adds to confusion on such a topic. I will to be more clear in my responses.

Originally Posted by William:

1. "Well, not really. If it did, you would see clearly. When you think you are taking control and it will effort to obey what you command of it.

2. That's the sad part, actually. The mind would make optimal decisions if left alone. It works perfectly, yet it will strive to do what you command it to do or when you consciously think or question.

3. You are forcing a duality and that is confusing. To answer your question; no, yet it would be revolutionary or revelational . To think it as a disadvantage indicates one trying to control the status quo which one feels comfortable in .



Okay, let's observe the first statement. When you are "thinking" and are in familiar territory, that territory poses no threat to you and you are "comfortable in it" and you can "dream" without running into any thing as that is exactly what "dreaming" is all about, or "day dreaming", as it were. ie, reverie, off in space, somewhere else, etc. Because you are familiar with it you can "think, dream" clearly and "good thoughts" will "come to you". We use phrases like this all the time like, "it just came to me", except you are doing it with yourself. Yet we do also use that "it just came to me" when we do "finally" understand what another is saying.

Like when you are driving an automobile over familiar road and you all of a sudden wonder where the last 20 miles went. Your "spirit, sub-conscious, god was doing the driving "for you" UNCONSCIOUSLY.

Now when we are in "unfamiliar territory" it is quite a different matter all together. For you to understand this, you have to believe in a "collective sub-conscious" working together. If you don't you will travel alone and afraid and that's when "sh*t happens". If you are afraid, then it will raise a red flag to all others that are "familiar" with that territory, where ever it is and you will have a problem "bumping" into trouble or other people who you "make afraid" because of your "alien/fearful" nature.

Now if you would just be yourself as you are in your own "familiar territory" and were just as smiling and comfortable, those who are not familiar with you, will adopt you into their's and you will add to that familiarity in you and you will grow and carry what you have in memory to a higher level, advancing, progressing and so forth.

Unconsciously they help each other and don't worry about anything because they know there is nothing to be afraid of for all is familiar.

You have to be complimentary of their territory, not antagonistic to it.

Now let's look at this when we are totally alone. You will be thinking or doing, or sleeping. If you are doing something that you are familiar with, you can do it "without" thinking, it just comes natural. You mind's subconscious is doing it for you and you can dream all you want to and never make a mistake in what you are doing. When you are learning or in unfamiliar territory, your sub-conscious will find that in your memory that will help make it more familiar and occupy itself with that process of "helping" you without you thinking about it; it just will.

Now the second statement. When you are "thinking" about that which is "not familiar" your subconscious will effort to "find" that which is in your mind and if it is not there and you command it will try to put the missing pieces together the best that it can, all the while you are trying to focus on what you are doing and it cannot not help you there for it is handling what you commanded it and you won't leave it alone and you 'trip up' on what you are doing that you are familiar with.

Now the third statement. Let's say you are doing something you are familiar with, but you don't like what you are doing and wish to be doing something else. Yet you have no idea of what that is? You are only doing what you are doing because you need to survive and you have been doing it so long you are "addicted" to it because if you didn't do it, you would "starve" to death. Your life depends on it. It becomes boring, monotonous and there is nothing "else" to hope for. YOUR STUCK between worlds; one you know and one you don't and you are wishing/dreaming for another as you peers remark, "you are just "wishful thinking" and at there behest, "just forget about it" and you try, but it will not go away; and the more bored, depressed and detached you become and you begin to "break down, become stagnant/static, atrophic, stale, hard, brittle, senile and lose all that you "did" have until you become DEAD, physically OR mentally.

Now let's change a word. Rather than using the word "familiar" let's use the word "love". You love what you are doing for that is what you "were born to do" and take up right where you left off. I am not going to get into the negative (karmic/fatal [fate-till]) aspects of that here. Not yet, anyway.

Now, as I mentioned earlier you have to believe in the "collective consciousness" or the "ONE" of it all of which we are A PART, not APART. Apart doesn't make any sense unless you think you live outside of that "uni-verse/one-verse/one for all/all for one" paradigm. Sadly, most do because they feel so "detached" from it, as we "all" need to "get it together". Now when we share love, those we love become "a part of US and the think complimentary to us and unconsciously with us without thinking about it. Once you recognize this you have a support system that is totally awesome, yet "un-conscious".

Now when you love doing something, you will want to share it and that will come naturally. When we love, we want to share for that is exactly what love is. We will be "more than happy" to give it away to others who don't have it.

Now when you love what you do, you can do it blindfolded, with your hands tied behind your back, without saying a word so to speak. You are the best at what you do. You are so 'good' you 'attract' others who also like what you do so you become a teacher and teach others to do the same thing. Yet they bring something different to the table; their familiarities and improve what it is that you have done. Then you can "retire" for the night. You have had a good, fulfilling "day" or "life" so to speak. In your dreams you wish upon 'another star' and that is were you go, to begin another day until you're grown and you have a star of your own until it fades away and go to another forever for there are billions and billions to come for now we only have one we know and many to grow. This is your training ground and you will grow forever.

Now I have given you a lot to "mull" over, for now. I know a lot of it will be confusing to you as it will be to others. But remember this is a global ship and others will be attracted to what I have given away and it will just "make their day". And it will you too, when you just stop thinking about it and just be you. It will come naturally, who you are when you wish upon a star. When you do the best you can at what you do, you will be led to that you love to do as others will help you get there. That's just the way it was meant to be.




It's not an easy subject to explain. It really depends on how receptive you are and how it fits with you personally. You are trying to hard to make sense of it and trying to make it comfortable with what you hold in memory and no one can help you do that, they can only hinder you it you try to make what others say fit into what you have personally experienced. Which means you have "too much on your mind", as so very many people do and do not know which end is up.

When I started this thread the way I did is because it truly seems like someone else is doing my thinking and I have come to just not worry about anything I say anymore and that is truly the revelation. My mind is doing it all for me "un consciously". Nothing worries me, except that which is alien to me someone else might offer and then I allow my sub conscious do it's thing to see if I can be of any help if they are asking me for it. If they are not asking and telling me how I "must" think, really pisses me off, big time and I nip that in the bud IMMEDIATELY, CONSCIOUSLY or if they are trying to use "their" words to define what I did say. That has a short fuse also.

Now let's talk about the collective. We only know it as instinct and we only apply that to animals as we observe their behavior like a colony of ants, a covey of quail, a wolf pack, or a gaggle of geese flying south, as beavers work together building a dam and the family nature of the mammals. They communicate in ways we are extremely "unfamiliar" with, but we are absolutely "NO DIFFERENT"; we just "don't speak their language nor do we know what is on their mind or "in it" as it were for we do not communicate with them except when we make "pets" of them and that takes a "lot of love and caring" and then they become "dependent" on us and lose that instinct or become distant to it as we also to a degree become dependent on that reciprocal love they give us. They become slaves to us as they fill a gap or an emptiness we have lost or never had. LIke our children as we try to make them our pets and mold them to be "like" us when they also have a mind of there own which is carried over from "before".

When we say or some say, anyway, the eyes are the window to the soul, they are absolutely right. The "eyes" have it, hands down. The eyes don't lie, even those who try, the eyes will deny as they are using the tongue as a distraction and will not look you square into yours. They know better. But they will try to dazzle you with their brilliance or baffle you with their bs. as that is not complimentary to anyone. Only those who are desperate or they trick into being desperate and cause fear with that which does not exist.

I know this is sketchy so don't try to understand it all at once. I will stay with you, if we go a little at a time. Let's just see what happens. OK.

William

So what are you driving at,if we could somehow stop arguing with ourselves then things would run alot smother?

Why would you want that?
I love pissing in the wind,how else are you going to learn?

Ha, I care not to think about that, if you don't mind. But you are more than welcome to do so if that is what rocks your boat. I will not, say will not, stand in your way. You can count on it. Ha!

William

Thank goodness,i was starting to think funny bones were in short supply around here.
Take care William.

Hey William, I'm going to respond, but I didn't have the time yet.

I think I agree so far. This is how our mind works. If we do something long enough it becomes automatic. It goes into the sub-conscious so we can do it easier.







I'm not sure I understand. I was making a comment about my belief on our neurological workings. I actually only read past the first few sentences of the first post now, I thought it was about neurology before. But now I see there is something philosophical there.

I was saying that our mind does make the best decisions. And gives us the illusion that we are making the decisions.





You mean a duality between my mind and the collective sub-conscious?
Because i think you are making a distinction between mind and a self that can command that mind, which I didn't make.



Yes, it was a deep philosophical thought experiment. But I was not thinking of it that way.



Yes, I try to understand, but I don't really so far.

I liked that post about truth btw.