are we just space garbage?

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Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 08:10 am
are we, human beings, just garbage? are we organic goo, rubbish, crap? i mean, we have so many defects.

body hair, wisdom teeth, and the coccyx. hair on our big toes. we have muscles useful for walking on all fours or hanging from trees that appear in various atrophied forms. men have nipples and women tiny vestigial sperm ducts lurking behind their ovaries.

our DNA carries broken genes for things that seem as though they might be useful, like odour receptors for a bloodhound's sense of smell or enzymes that once enabled us to make our own vitamin c. in a few million years, humans may very well have shed a few more odd features. so look now before they're gone.

we are constantly being attacked by cells breaking down, cancers and other bodily break downs.

humans are always committing heinous atrocities and unmentionable acts of depravity.

i know that we like to think that we are special, but, we just aren't.

what sort of crap are we?

thoughts?
 
Justin
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 08:16 am
@TurboLung,
We're a direct physical manifestation of our thoughts.
 
richrf
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 08:30 am
@TurboLung,
TurboLung;76305 wrote:
i know that we like to think that we are special, but, we just aren't.

what sort of crap are we?

thoughts?


Hi,

Yes, if one were to take a materialistic view of the world, it would make everything rather absurd. Any maybe it is?

But I peer through my eyes, and I am aware of an observer. And I wonder about that observer. Not my physical body, but that which is looking through my eyes. Exploring, learning, remembering, interacting. For what reason? Well, I have by beliefs. But it does not seem like crap to me. On the other hand it may not be serious either. It may just be .... amusing like a baby looking into a mirror.

Rich
 
Khethil
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 08:36 am
@TurboLung,
TurboLung;76305 wrote:
are we, human beings, just garbage? are we organic goo, rubbish, crap? i mean, we have so many defects.


That something has defects - isn't perfect - is a far cry from meaning that it's garbage. Nothing, that I'm aware of, is a perfect paragonal manifestation of "x". I do think that it's healthy to acknowledge and appreciate our imperfections, but again: Just because something has flaws doesn't mean its useless, trashy or without worth.

Indeed, some of the best of humanity's contributions, kindness and productivity can find its genesis in these same flaws. At least that's how I see it.

Thanks
 
Lily
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 08:39 am
@TurboLung,
TurboLung;76305 wrote:

what sort of crap are we?

Don't be so harsh on mankind. I don't think that a product of millions of years of evolution is crap. A little weird maybe, but not crap. :knight:
 
salima
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 08:41 am
@Justin,
Justin;76306 wrote:
We're a direct physical manifestation of or thoughts.


certainly true to an extent. i believe my mental attitude and behavior is a direct manifestation of my thoughts.

in the case of my body and my health, i would say they are an INdirect manifestation of certain thoughts, which i cant seem to identify or modify.
 
William
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 08:51 am
@richrf,
richrf;76313 wrote:
Hi................
......But I peer through my eyes, and I am aware of an observer. And I wonder about that observer. Not my physical body, but that which is looking through my eyes. Exploring, learning, remembering, interacting.....
Rich


On target. If only most realized that.

William
 
DasTrnegras
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 11:01 am
@TurboLung,
Well, I think it's important to remember that "Value" is something gained through, at least in economics, utility and rarity. I don't think there's any natural definition of value or beauty. These things aren't appreciated by cosmic space dust.

But they are appreciated by humans. We as humans, in fact, value ourselves pretty highly.

I think, however, your idea of humans as worthless garbage might stem from looking at humankind through the lens of that very cosmic space dust I was just talking about. From the viewpoint of the universe, humans are worthless simply because space-dust doesn't have a need for value. It doesn't have a need for us.

And if you subscribe to that viewpoint, then it makes sense that we would be worthless. But I prefer to view things from my own innately human perspective. I find value in doing so, regardless of the lack of value in it all from the viewpoint of Cosmic Space dust.
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 11:54 am
@DasTrnegras,
If being the product of a universal process i.e. physics and evolution makes a person garbage then everything in the universe is garbage. It is a far cry from saying that a product of natural processes is a product of natural processes to a product of natural processes is garbage. One is a statement of process the other is a value judgement about the worth of the product of the process.

To attach worth to a process one of two volitions needs to be invoked, your own or that of the universe. I would say that it is awefully presumptuous depending on your view of the universe to say that either the Universe (a collection of matter formed by natural laws) has a volition that can value garbage from not, or The Universe (a being with obvious super power and knowledge and apperant volition has made garbage on purpose or allowed garbage consciousness).

So the view of humans as space garbage can really only be your view and in my opinion, a view that drastically either misunderstands the processes of evolution and the universe. If evolution has developed consciousness, that consciousness would most likely as a species have a tendency to elevate its own above others, as a matter of survival.
 
jgweed
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 12:09 pm
@TurboLung,
Take a day's walk through the Metropolitan Museum of Art, or listen to Beethoven's Ninth, or read Hamlet. Then ask that same question.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 04:58 pm
@jgweed,
I think jgweed is exactly right.

Isn't it remarkable that we, with so many defects, can overcome those defects to produce beautiful works, and be so kind and loving?
 
Solace
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 05:09 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Yes, but the opposite can be said of us as well. Just to play Devil's Advocate, does the good of humanity really outweigh the bad? How is it that we, with all of our ethics and morality, can still be so cruel and hateful?
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 05:18 pm
@Solace,
Oh, absolutely: if we are not careful to cultivate the good within us, the bad will overwhelm us.

I am not sure whether good or bad outweighs the other. Rather than be the cynic, I'll plead ignorance.

But either way, the simple fact that we can overcome our immorality and nastiness should produce within each of us enough hope to look favorably upon our species, and to compel us to make the most of this strange and wonderful opportunity that is being human.
 
salima
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 06:39 pm
@Solace,
Solace;76451 wrote:
Yes, but the opposite can be said of us as well. Just to play Devil's Advocate, does the good of humanity really outweigh the bad? How is it that we, with all of our ethics and morality, can still be so cruel and hateful?


i used to think that one good person (say a mother teresa if that is your idea of a good person) carried more weight than any one bad person (add the name of your own particular favorite villain). do we remember them equally in history? has there been a greater impact on society or evolution by those who tried to ease the suffering of humanity or by those whose intent was to subjugate or annihilate others? i dont know...

the only shred of what i would consider as practical proof that i have these days is that the good must have so far triumphed, because if a destructive force were to overcome the nurturing response, we wouldnt be here today. maybe tomorrow we will all wake up dead, who knows...
 
Solace
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 09:12 pm
@salima,
Well, it is instinctual to survive and the Earth is a very accomidating place, despite our best attempts to ruin it. I think we could all name a few people whose atrocities have affected history to immeasurable ends. Sometimes I think we survive despite ourselves.
 
TurboLung
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 11:05 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;76449 wrote:
I think jgweed is exactly right.

Isn't it remarkable that we, with so many defects, can overcome those defects to produce beautiful works, and be so kind and loving?


the works are only beautiful to us. a dog for example would urinate on a rembrandt. a goat would eat a picasso and i don't think any animal appreciates our music.

another point. what are we good for? we don't contribute to the universe. we live and we die. we kill, maim, torture, lie, cheat, rape and hurt.

someone mentioned that good people are remembered more than the evil. i don't believe this. adolf hitler is a name more widely known than mother teresa.

if we have no purpose as human beings, then, why does anything matter? does this mean that i can cheat and lie :devilish: and not feel guilty, because, there is no consequence? the universe doesn't care if i kill and maim. in fact, it doesn't give a **** that we exist. :brickwall:
 
salima
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 11:16 pm
@TurboLung,
TurboLung;76544 wrote:
the works are only beautiful to us. a dog for example would urinate on a rembrandt. a goat would eat a picasso and i don't think any animal appreciates our music.

another point. what are we good for? we don't contribute to the universe. we live and we die. we kill, maim, torture, lie, cheat, rape and hurt.

someone mentioned that good people are remembered more than the evil. i don't believe this. adolf hitler is a name more widely known than mother teresa.

if we have no purpose as human beings, then, why does anything matter? does this mean that i can cheat and lie :devilish: and not feel guilty, because, there is no consequence? the universe doesn't care if i kill and maim. in fact, it doesn't give a **** that we exist. :brickwall:


actually lots of animals appreciate music-of course they appreciate it even if it isnt our best by any human standards. is there any music you like?

we contribute to the universe by being a part of it, there is no way we can not contribute and this isnt a contest where someone is going to win. you as an individual would make little difference to the universe, i admit.

as to who is more widely known, that is not a measure of influence.

and why do you expect the universe to care what you do? your community cares, and if you decide to rape and kill and maim they will most certainly show you what they think about it.
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 11:35 pm
@TurboLung,
TurboLung;76544 wrote:
the works are only beautiful to us. a dog for example would urinate on a rembrandt. a goat would eat a picasso and i don't think any animal appreciates our music.

another point. what are we good for? we don't contribute to the universe. we live and we die. we kill, maim, torture, lie, cheat, rape and hurt.

someone mentioned that good people are remembered more than the evil. i don't believe this. adolf hitler is a name more widely known than mother teresa.

if we have no purpose as human beings, then, why does anything matter? does this mean that i can cheat and lie :devilish: and not feel guilty, because, there is no consequence? the universe doesn't care if i kill and maim. in fact, it doesn't give a **** that we exist. :brickwall:


So the OP was a ruse to discuss the ethical worth of humanity, figured as much. In response to the OP, your last paragraph would be right with the assumption of no volition of the universe or no volition of a director of the universe. The universe exists we exist in it, we do our little biologically programmed dance our matter gets reorganized etc...

In an ethical dilemma about our place in the universe/good/evil etc... I'm afraid the answer is up to you. If you think we are garbage floating through space it is your opinion, as we discussed above, the universe has no volition to make a value judgment one way or the other. Now however if there is a volition of the universe or its director good and evil would not be up to you, and whether or not we are garbage would also not be up to you, so again it would be your opinion and in the scheme of the universe, that opinion still would not matter. Either way our final destination is controlled by the universe, its just a matter of whether or not it is a collection of natural laws, or a collection of natural laws designed or directed by a will that gets us there
 
TurboLung
 
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 11:36 pm
@salima,
salima;76545 wrote:
actually lots of animals appreciate music-of course they appreciate it even if it isnt our best by any human standards. is there any music you like?


for example?

[/quote]you as an individual would make little difference to the universe, i admit.
Quote:


if the entire earth was sucked up by a black hole it would not make any difference to the universe. in fact, our entire galaxy could disappear and it would not make a difference. our galaxy would be like an atom in an elephant.

Quote:
as to who is more widely known, that is not a measure of influence.


people are known directly in relation to their influence. michael jackson influenced millions, hence, his fame around the globe.

Quote:
and why do you expect the universe to care what you do?


i don't. i am just pointing out that it doesn't.

Quote:
your community cares, and if you decide to rape and kill and maim they will most certainly show you what they think about it.


yeah, i guess i just get a bit pessimistic and angry at the world sometimes.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 05:01 am
@TurboLung,
TurboLung;76544 wrote:
another point. what are we good for?

Paragons of seeing and thinking as far as I can see. Able to assign purpose to ourselves in the face of apparent chaos.
 
 

 
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