Outrageous philosophical questions

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odenskrigare
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 12:48 am
@viandante,
viandante;67613 wrote:
Can you tell me why time travel is impossible and computers human behaviour not?


Because time travel would present huge paradoxes, computers having thoughts doesn't.

viandante;67613 wrote:
Why the Decarte's problem is dubious? I don't want your opinion, I want an explanation.


Because it lacks empirical support. The body of data from neuroscience shows that thought is an emergent property of physical interactions.
 
manored
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 01:05 pm
@richrf,
richrf;67494 wrote:

Well, that is a fine line if I ever heard one. Now, did Eisstein think about relativity or did he create it? Hmmm ...

For me, when I create I think and when I think I create. Unless of course who ever created the computer was thinking.

Rich
You dont only think though.

richrf;67534 wrote:
I know humans will give computer sensors. We are more intelligent than the computer, that is why. Humans and roaches can adapt. Much, much more intelligent than computers, which are just little programs that do the same thing over and over again. I know AI people want to make it more than that. That is how they get research grants.

Rich
Actually they get research grants making it more than that, what they have already done. Some guys invented a little helicopter capable of mapping an area winhout getting lost or hitting any obstacles... that is obviously worth money Smile

richrf;67604 wrote:
I'll take the intelligence of a cockroach over a computer any time. While you may be enamored by a piece of metal that cranks out stuff very fast, I am more enamored by a species that has successfully managed to preserve itself for millions of years. It is a matter of taste, I believe.

Rich
What would you use the crockroachs brain for?

You see, thats why we invented computers Smile

There are some guys trying to put a rat's brain in rat-like robot and vice-versa. Kinda interesting... what works better: A rat with a mecha-brain or a mecha-rat with a brain? Smile

richrf;67609 wrote:
But I think those little neural, supercycle computers with advanced TNT operating systems have a ways to go. They cannot understand simple English sentences yet.

Rich
Its because we suck too much at planning inteligent beings, eventually we will get there.

viandante;67613 wrote:
Can you tell me why time travel is impossible
We have a thread about that... somewhere... so lets not de-rail this one. Smile
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 01:35 pm
@manored,
Hi again,

Some people are enamored by computers, some enamored by the resiliency of cockroaches. It is a matter of taste. If you want to put computers at a higher order than a cockroach brain, that is fine with me.

As for me, I rather have my brain than a computers brain, but if someone wants to exchange their brain for a computer's brain, then it is fine with me also. Just don't Matrix me! Smile

Personally, I do not find an equivalency between the two. I can do all sorts of things that I like to do, that a computer can't do. For example, ride a bike in a park. But, I would not be surprised if there are people who would rather sit around cranking out numbers for their whole life, and I think a computer mind is a fine idea for them. It just doesn't work for me. Plus, I can make a computer any time I want (an option for me), while if I was a computer, I would not have that option.

So, the upshot is, I am fine where I am at, and I like the way my brain has evolved into a very flexible state of consciousness. I can only wish the computer the very best in its own journey. I hope it remembers to be kind to those who created it.

Rich
 
odenskrigare
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 03:44 pm
@richrf,
richrf;67744 wrote:
Personally, I do not find an equivalency between the two.


Of course you don't: you've ignored all the troublesome facts and evidence.

richrf;67744 wrote:
I can do all sorts of things that I like to do, that a computer can't do. For example, ride a bike in a park.


Pages after the original post, you still can't tell the difference between a "computer" and a "robot".

A brain, which is most closely analogous to an artificial computer, can't ride a bike either.

richrf;67744 wrote:
But, I would not be surprised if there are people who would rather sit around cranking out numbers for their whole life, and I think a computer mind is a fine idea for them.


Your brain, which is a computer, "cranks out numbers" for your whole life.

There are approximately 100 billion neurons in an adult human brain. Each neuron synapses with about 10,000 other neurons. Each synapse has a rate of transmission of about 10 bits per second. so that's 10^16 bits per second, or a lot of numbers. And that's basically what the neurons do. They crunch numbers. That's how your mind works.
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 03:59 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;67474 wrote:


But brains are computers......


Is there a microsft emblem on the inside of your skull?:whistling:
 
odenskrigare
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 04:03 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon;67801 wrote:
Is there a microsft emblem on the inside of your skull?:whistling:


No

But there are a lot of neurons

And, as such, there are a lot of numbers being crunched

And that's what makes a computer
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 04:12 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;67798 wrote:
Of course you don't: you've ignored all the troublesome facts and evidence.


Read what you just wrote, and imagine that it applies to you. Pretty revealing isn't it? If you cannot see the differences between a computer and the human brain, I am sure I won't be able to help you out. Why don't you ask around and see if someone else can point out differences that you may be better able to see?

Rich
 
odenskrigare
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 04:34 pm
@richrf,
richrf;67804 wrote:
Read what you just wrote, and imagine that it applies to you. Pretty revealing isn't it? If you cannot see the differences between a computer and the human brain, I sure won't be able to help you out.


WordNet Search - 3.0

S: (n) computer ...... a machine for performing calculations automatically

A machine for performing calculations automatically ...... can you guess what the brain does? (protip: numbers are involved)
 
RDanneskjld
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 05:37 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;67811 wrote:
WordNet Search - 3.0

S: (n) computer ...... a machine for performing calculations automatically

A machine for performing calculations automatically ...... can you guess what the brain does? (protip: numbers are involved)


Your taking that the Computational theory of mind as if it is a fact and actually saying the Brain manipulates number's is patently false, rather that the mind is a symbol manipulator that follows step by step functions to compute input and form output. All along this you havent proved even stated an arguement for the Computational theory of mind rather than just asserted your position. Not that I'm against the Computational theory of mind and whether a computer can feel pain is not a question about whether a mind can be accurately simulated on a computer but rather a linguistic question about our use of language and what it means to have certain emotive states.
 
odenskrigare
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 05:41 pm
@RDanneskjld,
R.Danneskjöld;67820 wrote:
Your taking that the Computational theory of mind as if it is a fact and actually saying the Brain manipulates number's is patently false, rather that the mind is a symbol manipulator that follows step by step functions to compute input and form output.


Numbers are symbols

Other symbols can be encoded in terms of numbers

You see this happen whenever you see a JPEG or hear an MP3 recording

R.Danneskjöld;67820 wrote:
All along this you havent proved even stated an arguement for the Computational theory of mind rather than just asserted your position


Here's my argument tbh

http://www.hemming.se/gslt/LingRes/NeuralNetworks-filer/image002.jpg
 
RDanneskjld
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 05:56 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;67821 wrote:
Numbers are symbols

Other symbols can be encoded in terms of numbers

You see this happen whenever you see a JPEG or hear an MP3 recording


I know numbers are symbol's but there not the symbols that the human brain use's if it in fact does work as the Computational theory of mind suggests but earlier you presented the brain as if it was some number crunching machine, which is a misleading analogy.
 
odenskrigare
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 06:00 pm
@RDanneskjld,
R.Danneskjöld;67825 wrote:
I know numbers are symbol's but there not the symbols that the human brain use's if it in fact does work as the Computational theory of mind suggests but earlier you presented the brain as if it was some number crunching machine, which is a misleading analogy.


It's not a misleading analogy. It's not even an "analogy". It's the neurological fact. Not only is every neuron like a threshold gate, it is a threshold gate.
 
William
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 07:57 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;67827 wrote:
It's not a misleading analogy. It's not even an "analogy". It's the neurological fact. Not only is every neuron like a threshold gate, it is a threshold gate.


Oden, would you like to replace your brain with a man made one?
William
 
odenskrigare
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 08:12 pm
@William,
William;67845 wrote:
Oden, would you like to replace your brain with a man made one?
William


Sure, as long as I have evidence that it will work at least as well if not better than the original, and that the operation has a minimal chance of failing.

What would make me feel better is an incremental cellular level take over: take a pill every day, the artificial neurons find their way to the brain, look at the real neurons for their threshold, kill the old ones, take over, and so on. If any failure crops up, I can consult with the doctors and scientists before anything gets seriously screwed up.

This isn't ridiculous, it's science:

Neural Interfaces Program: National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS)
 
William
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 08:20 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;67848 wrote:
Sure, as long as I have evidence that it will work at least as well if not better than the original, and that the operation has a minimal chance of failing.

What would make me feel better is an incremental cellular level take over: take a pill every day, the artificial neurons find their way to the brain, look at the real neurons for their threshold, kill the old ones, take over, and so on. If any failure crops up, I can consult with the doctors and scientists before anything gets seriously screwed up.


Now, you have one. What is it you hope to accomplish that your old one couldn't?
William
 
odenskrigare
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 08:23 pm
@odenskrigare,
The possibilities with poking around in the nervous system are virtually limitless. If I get a head injury, it can be repaired immediately. I could back up the contents of my brain. I could have a photographic memory. I could run through symbolic logic proofs effortlessly in my head, etc.
 
William
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 08:38 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;67851 wrote:
The possibilities with poking around in the nervous system are virtually limitless. If I get a head injury, it can be repaired immediately. I could back up the contents of my brain. I could have a photographic memory. I could run through symbolic logic proofs effortlessly in my head, etc.


Hey, fantastic. So I can assume from your answer the bottom line is to live longer. Right?
William
 
odenskrigare
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 08:44 pm
@William,
William;67859 wrote:
Hey, fantastic. So I can assume from your answer the bottom line is to live longer. Right?
William


To a certain degree, but the main thing is to have a higher quality of life.
 
William
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 09:03 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;67860 wrote:
To a certain degree, but the main thing is to have a higher quality of life.


Good answer. Everyone wants a higher quality of life. Now let's say you are right. Now we have 10,000,000,000 plus people on the planet with man made brains living say 50 years longer and loving it. Man we are using up resources like it is going out of style and having kids out the kazoo, ripping their brains out at birth cause hell, who would want the old dilapidated one. Before you know it there's 20,000,000,000. Now I know you see where I am going with this. Before you know it the planet is depleated. Now what?

. William
 
odenskrigare
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 09:20 pm
@William,
William;67868 wrote:
Good answer. Everyone wants a higher quality of life. Now let's say you are right. Now we have 10,000,000,000 plus people on the planet with man made brains living say 50 years longer and loving it. Man we are using up resources like it is going out of style and having kids out the kazoo, ripping their brains out at birth cause hell, who would want the old dilapidated one. Before you know it there's 20,000,000,000. Now I know you see where I am going with this. Before you know it the planet is depleated. Now what?

. William


Start mining asteroids and/or the moon ...... or use our superior electronic brains to come up with more efficient engineering solutions

Derp

Why would artificial brains be any more of an ethical quandary than using regular old computers

And that's not even relevant to my original question
 
 

 
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