Postmoderns vs. moderns?

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Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 08:29 pm
I am not too familiar into postmodern philosophy, however, I read some summaries and reviews that state that many postmodern thinkers reject and disparage the modern ideas springed from Enlightenment, such as the Lockean natural rights and Mill's harm principle, and even Kant's general outlook of universality. What kind of political regime would postmodern philosophers propose? What is the pursuit of philosophy according to them?
 
Victor Eremita
 
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 07:05 pm
@EquesLignite,
I've never really got with the postmodernists myself; though I think they would say that philosophy is about realizing why we can never objectively know and that being said, truth is a function of power.

Hopefully someone can explain it better.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 07:09 pm
@EquesLignite,
Truth is the most powerful thing that's why.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 07:30 pm
@EquesLignite,
Postmodern philosophy has devoted a lot of attention to metaphilosophy, like deconstructing logical and semantic forms.

Postmodernism as a literary movement is something related but quite different, and seems to have a very strong emphasis on self-consciousness of style, irony, and surreality
 
prothero
 
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 10:34 pm
@Aedes,
Although I never see any consensus on the meaning of postmodernism in philosophy, I think the following notions help.

Modernity- was the quest for certainty. Modernity embraced the notion that reason and science would solve both the problems of nature and the problems of society. The cosmos and the polis would both yield to rational analysis.

Post modernity- is basically a rejection of that assumption. There will be no certainty. Reason and science alone do not give rise to verifiable systems of values and aesthetics.

Postmodernism does not reject science, experience or reason. It is a rejection of the notion that these tools will lead to certainty particularly with respect to society (polis).. It is a return to the humanism of the 16th century, an embrace of Montaigne (the unity of experience) and a rejection of Descartes (dualism).

In philosophy postmodernism is generally broken into deconstructive (moral and aesthetic relativism or even nihilism) and constructive forms. Both forms of postmodernism reject the formalism of analytic philosophy, linguistic analysis and logical positivism. There is a return to the classical question of philosophy about life and meaning even if the expectation for any certain answer is lost.

Postmodernism is often attributed partially to the devestating effects of the applilcation of science and technology to warfare especially in WWI. Subsequently science has brought increasing control over nature but with it has brought pollution, technological warfare, global warming, etc. Science is no longer seen as "observing and reporting on nature" increasingly science intervenes alters and even destroys the oder of nature. A mixed blessing.
 
richrf
 
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 10:39 pm
@EquesLignite,
EquesLignite;63804 wrote:
I am not too familiar into postmodern philosophy, however, I read some summaries and reviews that state that many postmodern thinkers reject and disparage the modern ideas springed from Enlightenment, such as the Lockean natural rights and Mill's harm principle, and even Kant's general outlook of universality. What kind of political regime would postmodern philosophers propose? What is the pursuit of philosophy according to them?


Hi,

This is probably the best description that I could find, though admittedly, for a postmodern-philosopher, any definition would have to be considered a living definition subject to change:

StateMaster - Encyclopedia: Postmodern philosophy

Quote:
Postmodern philosophy claims to be especially skeptical about simple binary oppositions that allegedly dominate Western metaphysics and humanism, such as the expectation that the philosopher may cleanly isolate knowledge from ignorance, social progress from reversion, dominance from submission, or presence from absence. This is sometimes called anti-foundationalism. To some critics, this skepticism appears similar to relativism or even nihilism. Defenders of post-modernism would argue that there is a distinct difference, however: while relativism and nihilism are generally viewed as an abandonment of meaning and authority, postmodern philosophy is generally viewed as an openness to meaning and authority from unexpected places, and that the ultimate source of authority is the "play" of the discourse itself (rather like Adam Smith's invisible hand of the market).
It is interesting that postmodern philosophy dovetails the probabilistic and uncertain nature of quantum physics as opposed to the deterministic of classical (Newtonian) physics. Whether postmodern ideas developed independently or were influenced by the uncertainty associated with quantum physics, I do not know. I have never delved into the subject.

In any case, in quantum physics, Heisenberg, the physicist who first asserted the Uncertainty Principle, often talked of the Schnitt (the cut), the line that separates the observed and the observer. It cannot be found. Similarly, I find post-modern philosophy adopts the same point of view, that you cannot find that line that divides simple binary oppositions - probably because there isn't any.

As for the type of government, I think it would be more related to style of governing. For example, one can contrast the George W. Bush style of Right and Wrong vs. the Obama style of observing all points of view, understanding them, and openness to moving to a new point of view. Both styles have the critics and adherents.

Thanks for the question. Made me think (something I love to do).

Rich
 
RDanneskjld
 
Reply Sat 5 Sep, 2009 07:17 am
@richrf,
Postmodernism involves questioning some of the positions held by modern philosophy. It tries to show that the sources of Knowledge that we take as being secure as much more tentaive than we first assumed. Particular attention is paid to language in the postmodern movement with postmodernism having strong links with deconstruction & poststructralism. For example Michel Foucault in his book Madness & Civilization took on the concept of madness was a changing concept largely dependent on Society, another great example of postmodern philosophy and it's use of language is contained in Derrida and his examination of binarys in language which attempts to undermine meaning which has led Derrida has been charged with nihlism by some.

Postmodernism exerts much greater influence in Philosophy departments in Contential Europe, than it does in much of the English speaking world who are more indebted to the Analytic tradition.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 5 Sep, 2009 07:33 am
@richrf,
richrf;88195 wrote:
Whether postmodern ideas developed independently or were influenced by the uncertainty associated with quantum physics, I do not know.
They both developed in the same era, but my reading of modern and postmodern philosophers (Levi-Strauss, Lyotard, Derrida, a couple others) seems to definitely want to distance itself from any assertions of understanding (as might come out of a natural science). These three have taken metaphysics as a subject for dissection and analysis rather than a philosophical endeavor. This is partly why philosophy has continually moved towards cognitive science and experimental methods in recent years, the questions are not so much philosophical unto themselves but rather where in the human mind does philosophy come from (see the NY Times magazine article on experimental philosophy).

I think Bertrand Russell, who was more "modernist" than "postmodernist", comes the closest to the quantum physics mentality by literally trying to break down mathematical and linguistic logic to its essential (atomic, as he called it) constituents.

In this, I needn't remind you, that Heisenberg uncertainty is a cardinal but very small part of quantum physics. All it really informs us of is the behavior of a single particle, but quantum physics has been greatly concerned with the identification of new fundamental particles and determining their characteristics, behavior, and place in the material universe. This is quite similar to Russell's project, and I'd bet he was influenced by contemporary physics in the 1920s.
 
richrf
 
Reply Sat 5 Sep, 2009 07:49 am
@RDanneskjld,
R.Danneskjöld;88235 wrote:
It tries to show that the sources of Knowledge that we take as being secure as much more tentaive than we first assumed. Particular attention is paid to language in the postmodern movement with postmodernism having strong links with deconstruction & poststructralism.


I think that this is more than just a passing idea. It goes right to the heart of what is considered certain and uncertainty. A brief example:

At one time I frequented a forum discussing Tai Chi Chuan (Taijiquan). Everyone was using the word freely to describe a mode of exercise practice, but it soon occurred to me that everyone was talking about the same thing but with big differences. When actually asked to either define or describe the word, no one could.

People often (maybe always) assume that they are in agreement about the idea that a word symbolizes but in (almost) all cases carry a personal subjective meaning to the word that is not being shared with the other parties. Yet, amazingly they are able to carry on a conversation. The word postmoderism is a perfect example.

Rich

---------- Post added 09-05-2009 at 08:58 AM ----------

Aedes;88239 wrote:
They both developed in the same era, but my reading of modern and postmodern philosophers (Levi-Strauss, Lyotard, Derrida, a couple others) seems to definitely want to distance itself from any assertions of understanding (as might come out of a natural science).


While individual authors may want to distance themselves from certain ideas in order to conform and make their ideas acceptable to the group at large (I am often obligated to do this in my day to day activities, even on such places as philosophy forums where one might think there would be a free exchange of ideas), it is still interesting that several transformations occurred at about the same time in history. For example, cubism, developed concurrently with Relativity.

Aedes;88239 wrote:
I think Bertrand Russell, who was more "modernist" than "postmodernist", comes the closest to the quantum physics mentality by literally trying to break down mathematical and linguistic logic to its essential (atomic, as he called it) constituents.


Yes, I would agree. Only Russell, did have a Heisenberg there to articulate the Uncertainty Principle, which might have saved Russell lots of time in his endeavor to create certainty in linguistics.

Aedes;88239 wrote:
In this, I needn't remind you, that Heisenberg uncertainty is a cardinal but very small part of quantum physics. .


I would say that their are two very key aspects to Quantum Physics: the wave function equation and the Uncertainty Principle which has pretty much stopped Physics dead in its tracks when it comes to trying to measure the nature of elementary particles. While the Uncertainty Principle itself has very little mass in a standard text, it is its simplicity of thought yet its enormous impact that gives it such a key role in not only Quantum thinking but all of thinking, and my guess is that postmodern philosophers were very much affected by the notion of Uncertainty in physics which revolutionized physics once it replaced the certainty of Classical physics.

This is an interesting area of exploration. I have done some already on the co-relationships between art, psychology, and quantum physics, and this would be a new one for me to delve more deeply into.

Rich
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 5 Sep, 2009 11:13 am
@EquesLignite,
I wouldn't reduce quantum physics to those two at all. The uncertainty principle doesn't tell us anything at all about quantum behavior or quantum particles, it only tells us what we can know and what we cannot. The nature of elementary particles is quite easy for physicists to measure -- they just cannot measure a single individual one. Imagine that we can't study a single baseball, but we can fire them through a pitching machine and based on their average impact learn their mass and based on their point of impact learn their spin. Furthermore, Heisenberg's uncertainty has never been universally accepted with some famous examples.

At any rate, despite apparent parallels between certain disciplines, I think the root causes were technological advancement and population growth. This led to all sorts of technical and aesthetic changes in the face of a rapidly changing world. While I think there's certainly a direct relationship between literary, psychological, and philosophical modernism, I think that basic scientific advancements were simultaneous but largely coincidental branches from this same trunk.
 
richrf
 
Reply Sat 5 Sep, 2009 11:33 am
@Aedes,
Aedes;88312 wrote:
The uncertainty principle doesn't tell us anything at all about quantum behavior or quantum particles,


I agree. It does however address the inability for classical instrumentation to probe any further, which is fundamental to almost all thought within physics since the time Heisenberg first articulated this perception. Whenever there is discussion of what it is?, the uncertainty principle is invoked. It is very difficult to discuss the nature of physics and under understanding of the physical world without invoking the Uncertainty Principle.

Aedes;88312 wrote:
it only tells us what we can know and what we cannot.


Which, from the point of understanding what the universe is composed of, is crucial. Since everything is constructed out of elementary particles, it is a fair statement to say that we don't know what the universe is constructed of. We cannot observe it directly, and the Uncertainty Principle tells us why - i.e., the very act of observation disturbs what we are observing. The subject and object become entangled which leaves uncertainty.

Aedes;88312 wrote:
The nature of elementary particles is quite easy for physicists to measure --


The way I would frame it would be: if you want to measure elementary quanta (I would not call they particles, since they are not), as particles, they you need to set up an experiment that measures particles. If you want to measure quanta as wave patterns, then you have to set up an experiment designed to measure waves (e.g. the double-slit experiment). The experiment determines what one views and how someone perceives quanta. This is the most fascinating and illuminating aspect of quanta exploration. It is a matter of looking at what is happening from a different point-of-view.

Aedes;88312 wrote:
they just cannot measure a single individual one.


Yes, I agree. And the Uncertainty Principle explains way. However, it is not clear that there is One, since everything is entangled. However, if we set up an experiment in such a way, it certainly appears to act as One - e.g. an electron cloud chamber.

Aedes;88312 wrote:
Imagine that we can't study a single baseball, but we can fire them through a pitching machine and based on their average impact learn their mass and based on their point of impact learn their spin. Furthermore, Heisenberg's uncertainty has never been universally accepted with some famous examples.


Yes, with Newtonian physics, it is presumed that one can, using deterministic laws of physics, that one can measure momentum and position (or spin). However, this is really just an approximation, as it turns out, that is fine for all intents and purposes, but it is not precise. This is pretty much the state of physics at this time: Fine for all intents and purposes.

Aedes;88312 wrote:
I think that basic scientific advancements were simultaneous but largely coincidental branches from this same trunk.


This may be, but I doubt it. A single read of what is happening in any of these worlds, by an astute observer, can immediately begin a chain reaction of thoughts that begin to germinate into a whole new line of thinking. Happens to me all of the time.

Rich
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 5 Sep, 2009 11:59 am
@richrf,
richrf;88319 wrote:
A single read of what is happening in any of these worlds, by an astute observer, can immediately begin a chain reaction of thoughts that begin to germinate into a whole new line of thinking. Happens to me all of the time.
Yes, that can happen, but that's different than did it happen. The roots of modernism were in the mid 19th century, with literary figures like Dostoyevsky and with philosophers like Nietzsche and Kierkegaard, who concentrated on consciousness and psychology and relativity of experience and perspective in their various ways. They predated quantum physics by decades. Same with modern political philosophers like Marx. Freud was a pivotal figure in modernism, and while he came later on I doubt you'll find evidence that he was meaningfully influenced by physics. The height of modernism, with people like James Joyce and TS Eliot and Pablo Picasso and Arnold Schoenberg, grew out of the early modernists in the late 19th century.

By the same token, I think that postmodernism was clearly a reaction against modernism's penchant for taking itself seriously. What is perhaps the single greatest work of postmodernist literature, Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon, utterly laughs at modern sciences; and if there's any homage to science it's to entropy because the whole structure of the book is entropic. Vonnegut ridicules innocent science in Cat's Cradle. You can even argue that DeLillo does it in Underworld, at least in its anti-nuclear arms theme. Postmodernism often portrays scientific advancements as destructive and humanity as deluded and foolish.

Hard to imagine how that bears the direct influence of modern physics except insofar as Hiroshima is a testimonial to it.

(By the way, I know that the word "particle" is not an accurate term unto itself, but because there is no macroscopic correlate and because "wave" isn't entirely accurate either, many people accept terms like "quantum particles" or "subatomic particles" with the understanding that this is something different than grains of salt.)
 
prothero
 
Reply Sat 5 Sep, 2009 11:59 am
@EquesLignite,
Although it would be wrong to attribute the rise of postmodernism to quantum mechanical findings, there are at least two aspects which give correlation to postmodern sentiments.

1. Modernism as the quest for certainty, for answers which could be derived by reason and experience and accepted as universal truths. Physics was the paridigm for the certain application of science. Newtonian mechanics and its sucess gave rise to the view of the universe as a machine obeying fixed laws with deterministic features. This eventually gave rise to Laplace type determinism as a philosophical and popular notion. Quantum mechanics began to indicate that even in the poster child for mechanistic determinism, uncertainty might be inherent.

2. Science as a spectator sport. The initial notion was that scientists observed without disturbing and reported on their findings. The observer dependency of results in quantum mechanical experiments implied that science was not a spectator sport. That the mere fact of recording and observing could alter results. Again if true in physics the poster child for mechanism, materialism and determinism how much more true in the life sciences or in the application of scientific methods to living subjects.

The general publics knowledge about quantum mechanics is so limited that it is not possible to attribute the major postmodern notions to awareness of QM findings. In general postmodernism is felt to arise out of science and technology applied to warfare espeically WWI and subsequently out of science and technology derived problems such as pollution, global warming, destruction of ecological systems, ect.

Thus

The quest for certaintly and answers from science and reason alone came to be viewed with suspicion.

The notion that science was just a spectator sport (free of values of programs of its own) came to be viewed with suspicion especially as science moved into the biologicial sciences and such things as biological warfare, genetic engineering, etc. Science no longer was a spectator sport. Science was now altering and changing the natural world in ways which many felt were both unpredictable and unnatural (dangerous). Science and reason no longer were just a search for truth.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 5 Sep, 2009 12:05 pm
@richrf,
richrf;88247 wrote:
Only Russell, did have a Heisenberg there to articulate the Uncertainty Principle, which might have saved Russell lots of time in his endeavor to create certainty in linguistics.
It wasn't Heisenberg who got this message to Russell, it was Godel. And not because of uncertainty, but because he showed that mathematical logic was not completely tautologic.
 
richrf
 
Reply Sat 5 Sep, 2009 02:23 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;88320 wrote:
Yes, that can happen, but that's different than did it happen.


Yes, I agree. I may explore this topic deeper because I have some interest in cross-discipline influences. Cubism (4 dimensional perspective) and relativity developed somewhat independently but I always wonder how independently?

I suspect a connection:

Whitehead, Postmodern Philosophy, Quantum Physics

"Although postmodern was not used by Whitehead himself, the notion was implicit in his 1925 book, Science and the Modern World, in which he said that recent developments in science and philosophy had superseded some of the scientific and philosophical ideas that were foundational for the modern world."

I think that this is a rich area to mine for new ideas, and is one way to see how philosophical and scientific thought influence each other.

Edit:

I also just found this book on Amazon: (I think this subject should be a core subject in any Philosophy curriculum)

Quantum Mechanics and the Philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead

"In Process and Reality and other works, Alfred North Whitehead struggled to come to terms with the impact the new science of quantum mechanics would have on metaphysics.

This ambitious book is the first extended analysis of the intricate relationships between relativity theory, quantum mechanics, and Whitehead's cosmology. Michael Epperson illuminates the intersection of science and philosophy in Whitehead's work and details Whitehead's attempts to fashion an ontology coherent with quantum anomalies.
Including a nonspecialist introduction to quantum mechanics, Epperson adds an essential new dimension to our understanding of Whitehead and of the constantly enriching encounter between science and philosophy in our century."

Rich
 
 

 
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