Death.

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sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 07:03 pm
@Dylan phil,
Dylan;61416 wrote:
Fear: be afraid or scared of; be frightened of;

"A true philosopher does not fear death."
- (Paraphrase from Socrates?)


Do you believe in the above statement? Why or why not?


No I dont believe in the above statement, unless you think every one is a philosopher then everyone has the capability/capasity to not fear death?

If it is just about philosophers and not about everyone (everyone being a philosopher) (we are all going to die dont cha know?) then i also would say there are some philosophers who fear death and some who do not and some who fear it soemtimes and some who do not fear it sometimes (but not all the time, like us all philosopher or not, sometimes we forget to remember). Still not sure if Socrates was trying to rationalise death in order not to fear but still did, or whether he had indeed come to terms with it.

(Not from a philosopher or person, started smoking again, does this make me less afraid or do i just forget my death?)

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 01:18 AM ----------

The Jester;61422 wrote:
I see it everyday, it could befall to me everyday I woke, and even when I dream dreams I want not to end, but actually I personally haven't met it yet. When we befriend, then I will know, perhaps, something more: if it is as dreadful as some declare or a freedom maker as some other claims. Then I will be able to tell you more.


The Jester indeed, befriend death indeed, unless you are speaking of other friends deaths then to think you can is truely come to terms (which is what friendship is, terms of indearement) foolish, how can you become freinds with someThing rather than a someOne.
Death is not a person, death is a state and so much more, but a personality i heavily doubt,
we all wish she is waiting with a smile and black eyeliner but lets be honest death is not nor ever shall be friendly and give us a wink and smile as she pushes or pulls us elsewhere or nowhere, never, death is us ,is ourselves.
If you disagree with this tell me why death is not ever an anthropomorphism or always must be for us to lose our fear.
Death is a transition from one space to another or to no other it is not an angel but for our need to disarm it.

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 01:26 AM ----------

avatar6v7;61474 wrote:
This depends what you mean by death and fear. Personally I do not fear death in the abstract- I believe that I will live on after my death, and have good philosophical and personal reasons to believe so. However I do fear death in the sense that I fear an early death, or a painful death- I want to live a full life, and I don't want to suffer too greatly. When people get old they fear death less- because at that point it is evident that death is a natural part of life and that they are reaching that natural point. All of this is obvious and fairly ubiquitous. So my question is this- do you mean that philosophers should believe in an afterlife, or be content in some stoic way with their fate? Be more specific.


Death is transistion you are saying, an inevitable one surely you say, but what if death never comes early or to late it just is, an needs terms in order to rationalise it by giving it age.
Trust me when i say, your death will be right on time.
And only last a fraction enough to not even know if it happened.

Your question proves a point that we must give death life in order to forgive it.

Agreed be more specific.

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 01:32 AM ----------

Dylan;61485 wrote:
I think it is somewhat of a paraphrase from Socrates. If he is not the one who said/believed that, then feel free to correct me.



It isn't my statement - I've just read it somewhere and wanted more opinions other than my own. Though, in my opinion, (hardcore?) philosophers should not "fear" death as why would we fear something we are so curious about? I would not say that we should welcome it per se, but be prepared. I suppose with your latter, "be content [..] with their fate."

I mean.. would you be willing to jump into a black hole just out of the sake of curiosity of what could be on the other side? (Disregarding that many theories say that death awaits you.)


Curiosity killed the cat, there is something to fear, it should not be whether a philospher fears death it should be if anyone fears death what is the point of an inevitable, why fear it if it has to happen? It must have to happen for a reason, the question remains, what gives us the right/reason to know why something is to not be feared as well knowing what reason/right we have for fearing a vipers bite?
Why fear the death, not just the disease?

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 01:34 AM ----------

GoshisDead;61486 wrote:
Since all Metaphysical traditions are primarily concerned with creation and death, it seems to me that if one has truely come to terms with a metaphycal ideology one has come to terms with death.


Please tell me what you mean by metaphysical here and what the addition of ideolgy detracts or adds to the discourse?

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 01:37 AM ----------

Victor Eremita;61488 wrote:
A true philosopher fears death, but overcomes that fear.


A true anyone, anyone, anyone, true what, why the hell would you fear death but for the transition an why are you so sure it can even be overcomed by anyone?

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 01:57 AM ----------

rhinogrey;61670 wrote:
Philosophers are generally big-picture people. We understand life is not "a story about me." This takes away the fear of your ego's own nonexistence and makes you pretty damn curious instead.


No not a story about a me, but of EVERYBODY.
The story of an every me then.
'We' what makes you a we and not a me?
No one understands but a few what life is like as less than a me and more than a we.
(I dont make my points well but so hope you try.)
Everybody is curious else they would not be afraid.
Ego is a nice word you dont use to its full effect and even contradict yourself with unwittingly.
How can you be an ego and not an everybody an all state waiting death?
Ego is what it is to be curious, no one is living dead without curiosity, you sound as if some death for some is any different than for others. Some have more ego to contend with than others, some have more fear than others. WRONG, we are all in a boat that will capsise or just float, but none will either drown or none either be bouyant.
How is knowing that another story is as or more important than your own,
sounds like your ego is working overtime if you think your death is any different than anyone elses.
Suicide is the only power to be had over death and this to is not any different han anyother as the end result is always the same.
However Running up that hill, does not get you 'there' any farther.

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 02:07 AM ----------

hue-man;61673 wrote:
Very good choice of words, Victor.

---------- Post added at 09:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ----------

I agree with what Victor said. It's not that a philosopher shouldn't fear death, but a philosopher should have the courage or fortitude to overcome the fear of death. Some philosophers use wishful thinking or faith in an afterlife to overcome the fear of death, while other philosophers, such as myself, use rationality, wisdom, and plain fortitude to overcome such fear. There is no rational reason to be afraid of a non-existent circumstance such as death. There is, however, reason to fear the pain that may accompany the dying process, and there is reason to view non-existence as a misfortune.


What makes them a very good choice of words again?
Fear is all about pain, none of it is about death.
How can you fear something you dont know nor ever will until launch/dive? (there is some reason and wisdom and rationality for you)

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 02:09 AM ----------

Icon;61771 wrote:
It's funny, I have a unique perspective on this I suppose considering my past. Having died three times previously, I have prepared for this inevitability. I do not worry about those I leave behind because I do not plan on letting them know I am dead.


You have not died three time before, that is obviously yet to happen just the once.

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 02:16 AM ----------

Catchabula;61785 wrote:
In a correspondence with a friend some time ago we talked about all this. I wrote the following words then. Perhaps they are relevant here too.

"... "Death" can be defined as that moment in time during which a living organism, e.g. a human being, passes from the condition of "being alive" to the condition of "being dead". So we have the following and consecutive series of loosely defined notions: (being) alive - dying - death - (being) dead. Now why is this important and where exactly is the problem? It seems to me that the problem is situated in notion number two: "dying", being a process characterised by time as well as by the inevitable approach of death. Death itself is just a short and passing moment, but it is very effective in determining and influencing the human mind during the process of dying. Indeed many people are less afraid for death than for dying, while they fear that period in life in which death is most intensively present in their lives and colours each passing moment. Now this reminds one of Churchill's motto: "There is nothing to fear but fear itself". Fear is indeed not an inevitable ingredient in the process of dying, and there may be many people who are dying or have died without knowing fear. But in many cases fear is present, being the product of a mind that is able to imagine and anticipate, filling in the unknown with suppositions and hypotheses, such as hell and damnation or black nothingness. Fear is always caused by anticipation; animals do not fear death and they even have no idea of it at all, because they live in the moment and do not have a human's time horizon. Now in a second approach we can distinguish several ways of dying, death being always the same as a relatively short moment of transition. First according to time: dying can take a (very) long or a (very) short time. Even life as a whole can be seen as one long period of dying, during which death -or at least its notion- regularly comes and goes in our minds and "hearts". But one can also state that dying means being still alive and living, and indeed people do many life-oriented things when dying, such as making their will or actively saying farewell to the world...."

I had an operation once, and I was pretty nervous the moments before I was sedated. Then all of a sudden I was "gone" and awoke hours later. Being "gone" was no problem at all, but I had some worries before. And the worries were the problem. I am less scared since then.


I agree with everything happily with what you have said, but for one thing and it may be put into context here by someone else, but of couse all animals fear death, else why run fron the lions jaws, why hide in shell, why struggle the harpoon, why (like us) have offspring and teach them how to avoid it.
'Fear' here might be a strong word used incorrectly by either me or by you.

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 02:23 AM ----------

xris;61790 wrote:
Long term illnes i dread, i am angry that i wont see tomorrow because i love tomorrow,I miss my children before Ive even gone,I hate getting old,i dont want to die i love life.Am i frightened of dying? no, slightly optimistic and i know i wont be disappointed.


I miss my tomorrow, children, age before i have them.
Is life ever enough?

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 02:27 AM ----------

Matthew;111751 wrote:
I would agree. Not only because the term resurrection it in religious text but also it seems to me the the cosmos's nature might support those conditions needed for it. Galaxies have been found to be surprisingly magnetic and because of the existence of radio pulsar stars. Magnetism and a radio waves are generated by a machine used to help save peoples lives by taking images of a person's insides in order to give doctors knowledge of any would be problems. Before being born I suppose I was nonexistent which might be like being dead. In act of dying I believe the brain releases compounds that might suppress pain. In a car crash I once had in 02 I cut my forearm open and did not feel it not even after some time, it seemed very surreal. The pain it caused others was more distressing than the thought of dieing.


Unbirth may be likened to it, but it is not it.
You cannot have death without reference/experience to life.
One is definately contingent upon an other but different others for both life and death.

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 02:40 AM ----------

William;111900 wrote:
How many of you have witnessed death? Not anything you might have seen on the internet or on television. But you were actually present when another human being did in fact die. Not just after or just before or anything that might be known as a "near death" experience?

William


Only freeing for that person which does not witness, why so many try martyrdom, trying to be witness to the only thing the self is not admitted.
Whether they are successful is only for them to know, and God to try to teach the way to either fearlessness or martyrdom.
Both still sacrosanct funny enough.
 
salima
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 01:44 am
@Dylan phil,
i welcome my own death actually...though at the last minute there may be an instinctual urge not to let go of the body, so i hear-that even some of the highest of enlightened beings at the moment of passing felt a fear even though they had the deepest conviction that it was unfounded.

what i fear is the death of those near to me. i am at present far too affected by the sudden passing of a man i didnt know, but had seen so many times standing in a shop i used to frequent, who barely said more than a few words to me, but whose eyes had the most kindness.

when my grandmother died i cried for three days straight, even in my sleep. it was more for the end of my childhood than for her passing specifically i think...though i was about 28 years old at the time. when my father died i shed not one tear-they had all dried up during his illness while i prepared for his death with him sitting beside me. i miss him terribly to this day and it has been 28 years.

when someone i loved very deeply died of aids...i felt exhilarated, almost as though i could feel the freedom he had achieved and the end of all his frustrations and suffering, and i would visit his grave full of joy, even though i knew he was not there, but flying through the air alongside the airplanes that took off from the airport nearby.

when someone who was more than even a father or a lover to me died, i thought i would feel only joy, since he had no fear of death and had reached the heights of a yogi in meditation, and not only am i certain he navigated the path of transition in an exemplary manner but depend on him to aid me in my own...i was totally unprepared for the inconsolable grief that i suffered for well over a year.

i will never know ahead of time whose death is going to pulverize me...but not mine.

and i also fear for anyone who might be sorry when i die.

i think this is some of the profound sadness matthew was referring to that may accompany death...
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 12:08 pm
@salima,
I agree Salima:
There is more than just physical reasons that death has traditionally cross culturally been metaphorically an embrace. The tough part is becoming the person that understands its as a loving embrace, not an abduction.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 08:23 pm
@GoshisDead,
Salima; (everybody)
The body is weak, the will is strong. (at least the body tries to be strong, but will ultimately fail us all, not our all being though)

You raise an interesting point we all should know somehow, 'we will never be prepared for the effect of the 'loss' of another', so why try and manage what 'loss' we should/could be to ourselves first as well as for others? why try to find resolve and fearlessness when it will effect us in ways we never will know nor be prepared for. Why try and manage?

DEATH IS FUTILE.

Graves are there for the living.

When we are met, it is not death anymore, we are greeted only upon arrival, which is that we have left something behind, we have left life behind. But the point i feel i need to make is death is only the transition/transformation of self, death is not afterlife nor nothing. Ergo death eventually is nothing, (but perhaps a memory), nothing in that it is always left behind for those who go further or those who drop off the face of things.

DEATH IS NOTHING, (possibly the only nothing, but not the state of nothing for that is still a state of something being nothing)
DEATH IS NOTHING but left behind discardance. less than litter. less than a memory because it can never be lived.

I would agree whole-heartedly with your sentiment that your 'death will not pulverise me', 'WILL NOT BEST ME' i would prefer to hear you sing.

because death is about the bruising

Your death for any who may be sorry for their loss (not your loss, it is your reward for a life well done) your death is to them search/learn/find forgiveness and healing and acceptance (even admittance on occasion).
Death creates a bruise that of which the best will heal from and become stronger, for the lesson and one thing death does in abundance is remind us about life, that 'I am still alive', how it was lived and when we heal we know how to live our lives better for recognising first our own life by the inspiration of that which we loose.

I DIE, I DO NOT KNOW DEATH.
I LIVE, I KNOW NOTHING BUT DEATH
these are just the rules we live and die by.

Why would anyone be afraid of a nothing or even an everything?
 
William
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 04:20 am
@Dylan phil,
What if, and those of you who have known me in this black and white realm, know I don't live in a what if world, but for now, what if................this is hell. Many times I feel my mission in life is to put out the flames. Ha! Somehow, I have always known, I have never.........NOT BEEN! I have always been here, not in hell, but been......somewhere. I find that reassuring though, myself do not know, exactly, what that means.

I just know there is a better place. Perhaps it is here when the fires go out? If that is indeed true, it takes time to realize the error of our/your ways being the perfect creations we all are. We/you/us/I have to learn for ourselves and in that we find a real freedom that allows us to live without the trappings that grieve us/you so. It is what we hold on to that we feel losing that cause us to worry, when it was never ours to begin with. We lose it all in death.

Reminds me of the man who wished all his wealth be buried with him and before he married, his betrothed must agree to his terms and she did and they did marry and upon his death she did as he wished and sold all his earthly belongings and before the lid was closed, she tossed in a check that was in that amount to the last red cent. Ha!

Earlier I asked a question about the number of people who had actually witness death and only one said that they had. I was of the lucky ones and the two who were responsible for my being here and now, I was there on each of their passing from this world and I knew they............were not gone and wished them well until we meet again.

How many times when departing from someone have you said; "See you later"! Has any one ever dwelled on that. Even strangers when it is likely we will never see them again? I often say now, "you can count on it" when it is said to me often leaving a quizzical expression on their face, ha! Those that were close to us in the past still are; we don't remember it because are different than that they once were. Is that good or bad? Well it could be good if we didn't force them to recall the past; a domain they have already experienced! We do that so they can survive in this one and in doing so force them to repeat that they don't care repeating. There many ramifications of that I could bring to your attention, but I will spare you, ha! More following, ha!

We gather around us those that comfort us whom we are not afraid of and they give us support and we tend to be dependent on them and in doing so we become selfish and the mind presents all kinds of scenarios as to what the future would be without them. We even create scenarios that render guilt for those we hold close to ensure they never leave us. I have witnessed this so many times. Such statements like "What would you do if someone close to you died, how would you feel"?.....to instill that guilt or feeling of a not yet come.......remorse.

That was why I asked the question. My Dad died in my arms and my Mother three years later. Not in my arms but I was at her bedside. I am not a fan of funerals and my family on my Fathers side is most definitely Irish and we gather in the tradition of the wake and there is a celebration and a reminiscence with drink, food, few tears and lots of laughter. I choose as most of that heritage to recalled the good I hold in memory with less dirge that is associated with so many rituals of this occasion. The untimely death of a child is the only exception. In the broad scheme of things there is a reason for that. In most cases we are forewarned that this is going to happen when the child has infirmities that preclude they will not have a long life. There is no way anyone can celebrate at the untimely death at the loss of a child, before or after birth. I have no idea of what prevails in that event for it has never happened in my family. The before birth yes, but how many is not known for that the individual mother must deal with and the father if it is indeed known who the father is?

My youngest brother was killed in a car wreck five years ago and even then there was celebration at his passing. Those that feel the most grief are those who have the most guilt as they recall the many times they took advantage of that person who passed and in that there is reason for them to feel they way they do. Those are the ones that frequent cemeteries though they won't admit it seeking some kind of penance for their taking so much.

Death is a part of life and how you deal with it pretty much depend on you. Whether you are a giver or a taker and we do take from those we say we love the most. When in truth if we can gather anything from what love means is the freedom we offer that will allow each and everyone one to be themselves with no bonds attached to them so they will have the freedom to enjoy their life in such away that will allow them to give freely all they can and in return we would do the same for all others. What a world it would be if all were so giving. Wow! Can I dream or can I dream.

I will see that world and am confident in that fact and I know I will die someday as will those that are close to me. If those pass before me, I will not ponder that in any respect and as in the passing of my Father and my Mother I will deal with that when and if that time does come and not a moment before.

When we hold on we take so much from others and keep it for ourselves and there are penalties for that most don't consider and choose not to for it would indeed cause a pain and a guilt that is hard to deal with and the ego takes over and rationalizes it so it want hurt so much as excuses are created to relieve that guilt and it's called rationalization, our most grievous fault brilliantly noted in well known soliloquy by another William, ha!

I can only hope others can gather a little of what I offer here, and say do your best to live in the moment and focus on that and offer all you can to others you share those moments with unselfishly. In that you will realize a peace of mind that will offer you more than you could ever ask for and when those times come that you need help that mind will offer you what you need that will allow you to deal with it. if it is not at peace, the reverse will occur until all are so giving.

It will happen one day and I am sure of that. How much hell we can endure has not yet been determined. I say we in this instance because I am here with you. I can't deny that I have often noted this is a "we" paradigm, not an "I" one. We are all in this together and death is just a part of it and will always be. I have offered much on this as to what I think death to be. Many will not agree and that's okay, someday they will and I am confident in that. It's what keeps me going and I will go on forever.:a-ok:

See you later, ha!
William
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 06:41 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;111756 wrote:

Jesus probably beat Socrates as far as (attributed) last words go. "It is finished!" I think Nietzsche would agree that these last words are more life affirming and indicative of a life well lived. "Mission complete" or "I have done what I was here to do". Socrates could have said something similar to this but according to the dialog he said the little quip about the rooster.

Very nice point. Nietzsche opens a book that same rooster. "It is finished" is indeed better. I agree. Nietzsche got high on Jesus and Byron as young rooster himself. Is Nietzsche Jesus with his mask on backwards?

Nietzsche says affirm life, and also to live dangerously. This is an unresolved tension in his work. Truth is lie. Affirm life by risking it. Morality is sin (idolatry). Socrates death speech is quite contemptuous detached heroic sublime. Jesus has that dark moment of "why have you forsaken me." But only in two gospels, right? Schopenhauer said that a philosopher, once he had wrote his book, could die in peace like an insect that had lain its eggs.
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 07:20 am
@Dylan phil,
i think i fear the death of my son most of all. i cant think of anything more unbearable than to outlive one's own child. no matter what the circumstances are, i think i would be forever mourning. if there were other children i would have reason to focus on them instead-but my only son? and no one else left in my life to come anywhere close to what he is to me?

for me it isnt a question of guilt-i feel enough guilt now for things i didnt do and what i shouldnt have done and not doing enough and doing too little and not knowing what to do. i dont blame myself, but i feel guilt anyway...i mean it is unavoidable guilt due to ignorance. ignorance is not an excuse, but it is useless to blame someone for being ignorant of the one or two things that might have helped when they looked in a million places trying to find out what they were.

so how will it be any worse when he dies? the guilt will die with him...along with yet another branch of the family tree. i think if i must live to see that day, nothing will console me-nothing whatever.
 
Quinn phil
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 07:04 pm
@Dylan phil,
Guess I'm not a "true" philosopher.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 12:46 pm
@Quinn phil,
Quinn;113090 wrote:
Guess I'm not a "true" philosopher.


Why not ? I think it very sane if some philosophers kept an eye out for the living; they support the intellecttuals. Death is a fact. Hart stops.

Life goes on and on, rejuvenated. Isn't Life more intriging than Death. Furtermore we want to know the Afterlife without das Leben zu Kennen.

Philosophers should wrk and get priorities right. We can not wait for science with their instruments that barely measure the Time.

zI think we need to focus on main population problems, religious tensions and sorting out the econmy by presenting alternative systems.


Pepijn Sweep
MAN Gister*
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 05:46 am
@Dylan phil,
Dylan;61416 wrote:
Fear: be afraid or scared of; be frightened of;

"A true philosopher does not fear death."
- (Paraphrase from Socrates?)


Do you believe in the above statement? Why or why not?
I belive it's stated for philosophers who belive in a greater cause, and will sacrifice themselfs for the greater good. Like civilians who voulenteer for military duty, as they belive in contributing to a greater cause.
 
TurboLung
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 09:58 am
@Dylan phil,
Dylan;61416 wrote:
Fear: be afraid or scared of; be frightened of;

"A true philosopher does not fear death."
- (Paraphrase from Socrates?)


Do you believe in the above statement? Why or why not?


Death can suck my balls.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:06 am
@TurboLung,
TurboLung;146185 wrote:
Death can suck my balls.


Or it could kick you; more painfull ! But you wouldn't be afraid ? Neither would I, I would be sorry because I enjoy life.
 
NecromanticSin
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 04:39 pm
@Dylan phil,
I fear the action of dying, as when it will happen,how and why. I do not fear what comes after death, beacuse I believe there is no afterlife. I actually consider that death would be something peaceful. Not that you would be aware of it, but sort of like when you sleep, and don't dream. Personally beacuse, I find life very difficult and full of suffering. Yes, it has it high points but those are short and far in between. I just over-all think death will be nice.
But in a sense, I am also just curious about what will happen. So I do not fear death, I wonder if it will bring light to what religious people think it will be, or it will be what athiest believe. It's sort of the final answer to the big question that we truly will never know til it happens, and even then, we probably won't be aware of it.
 
TurboLung
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:22 pm
@NecromanticSin,
If there is no afterlife, then, life is very cruel. It gives us a taste and then says, "That's enough".

We have to watch our children grow up inoccently and ache when they ask us what happenes when people die. Do we tell them the truth, that it is probable nothing happens and you will not see mummy and daddy again, or, do we lie, and let them enjoy life without this knowledge that always haunts us?

Sometimes I feel like giving the sky the bird and telling everything, "Thanks a ***ing lot..."
 
 

 
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