Is Theism An Excuse To Embrace Judgmental Behavior?

@Icon,

Icon wrote:

Ok, you win. you made me laugh out loud at work. That doesn't happen often. Thank you.

Hey, my pleasure.

Icon wrote:

EDIT: Also, your point was very valid. Still, I am trying to point out that even if dictation from the church exists, it is a persoanl choice to obey.

Morality is STILL a personal thing.

Sure, sure. But bribery (eternal paradise) and coercion (eternal torture) tend to make those choices rapidly convergent.

@xris,

xris wrote:

No because they believe god has chosen their morals for them and no amount of experience and as you know full well debating makes not one jot of difference.

Haha, yea I suppose that's true

@Icon,

Icon wrote:

EDIT: Also, your point was very valid. Still, I am trying to point out that even if dictation from the church exists, it is a persoanl choice to obey.

Very true; once again bringing it back to the fact that morality ends up being individually determined.

@Khethil,

I like it, no matter what the objections to my proposal ill just restate my opinion and that will confirm it..Ill have to remember that one..

@xris,

xris wrote:

I like it, no matter what the objections to my proposal ill just restate my opinion and that will confirm it..Ill have to remember that one..

You have yet to come back with a valid retort that disproves my thought process.

Yes, theism/atheism has an impact but no more than any other experience.

@Icon,

Icon wrote:

You have yet to come back with a valid retort that disproves my thought process.

Yes, theism/atheism has an impact but no more than any other experience.

Well what can i say you have decided my points are not valid, none of them..but then i dont think you have proven your point so nurrr..

@xris,

xris wrote:

Well what can i say you have decided my points are not valid, none of them..but then i dont think you have proven your point so nurrr..

That is exactly my point... This thread HAS no point.

This thread is ridiculous. The very subject betrays the truth.

Get it now?

@Icon,

Icon wrote:

That is exactly my point... This thread HAS no point.

This thread is ridiculous. The very subject betrays the truth.

Get it now?

No i dont think i do.maybe i came to it too late..so why did you oppose my objections ?

@xris,

xris wrote:

No i dont think i do.maybe i came to it too late..so why did you oppose my objections ?

Because your objections point to religion as the cause for morality when, in all actuality, it is nothing more than a contributing factor.

Religion does not make you eat or sleep or talk or do anything in any certain way. It only suggests that you do it a certain way. It is up to the person to choose. This is why people choose different sect of the same religion. They find a religion which matches the sins they wish to commit.

@Icon,

Icon wrote:

Because your objections point to religion as the cause for morality when, in all actuality, it is nothing more than a contributing factor.

Religion does not make you eat or sleep or talk or do anything in any certain way. It only suggests that you do it a certain way. It is up to the person to choose. This is why people choose different sect of the same religion. They find a religion which matches the sins they wish to commit.

Ah there's the rub young sky walker i never said that did i ? I remarked on the position being voiced that it was nothing to do with religion..IT does cause certain theists to build their moral standards on scriptures some more than others, it also has a significant influence on the convinced devoted followers.Not like us agnostics or atheists we draw on raw logic to form our moral standards like drinking to excess is ok if you dont fall over.

@Icon,

Icon;46169 wrote:

It seems to me that Theists have this concept that God gave them an innate right to judge the actions of others by a certain set of rules which they hold dear.

Odd that the only 'sin' is displayed with such vigor by those to whom it was prohibited as 'sin'; Pride/ego! Ego readily identifies with the 'truth' that it imigines that it 'knows'/possesses. And, in light of this 'truth', vain prideful ego (self-riteous autonomous godlikeness) judges 'different' as 'wrong' (in violation of 'the' truth that they possess) and equally; 'bad', 'evil', 'heathens', etc... 'other'... Ego food. Prideful judgement is certainly not limited to 'theists' but is all the more noticeable in that particular context. Prideful judgement might be less noticeable in the context of capitalism/consumerism, where everyone claims to be the 'right' one in a sea of 'others' and 'wrong' ones. Religion, in general, is based on austere teachings; deny the 'self' (ego), 'not my will but thine', etc...
Perhaps that is why Xtian 'Pride/hypocrisy' is obvious to everyone but themselves?

It seems that a good majority of the Theists which I have interacted with have forgotten the teachings of forgiveness, love and understanding only to embrace judgment, prejudice and superiority complexes.

Quote:

This makes me wonder, often, if religion, God and other forms of theism are nothing more than an excuse to adopt immoral behavior under the guise of a one true set of rules.

As i said, it is a matter of Perspective. I never met a Xtian that claimed to exhibit 'immoral behavior' (something that exists in the eye of the observer) under any circumstances, they are always 'riteous' and, hence, need no excuses. Nor need one 'excuse' that of which one is in denial.

Quote:

"Judgment is reserved for the one true god."

... and all who fancy themselves as such! (Pride/free-will)

@Icon,

Quote:

"Judgment is reserved for the one true god."

I'd be interested to know where this quote is taken from, exactly. Google tells me this :
No results found for "Judgment is reserved for the one true god."

The Biblical verse you are perhaps thinking of is "Judge not lest ye be judged" (Matt 7:1)

I'd also like to point out that your line of discussion is itself a judgement.

Whenever we enter a discussion on Ethics we have to make judgement calls.
The point about Matthew 7:1 is further understood by the notion that the judgements one makes against others will be used to judge oneself. (Sorry cannot find the verse, but I am pretty certain it goes something like that)

Its a rather flacid line of reasoning to stand in judgement against the concept of judgement itself.

Our behaviour has consequences. To ignore the consequences of destructive behaviour in others is to, in effect, suffer those consequences; or allow others to suffer such and such.

Being on the receiving end of unfair judgement is an entirely different matter altogether.

The quote which you make points this out. Nowhere in the Bible, that I can find, are people told not to judge. And yet, many non-Christians pretend that this is what the Bible says, precisely to try and wriggle out of whatever it is they have lurking in their conscience.
:flowers:

@Poseidon,

Icon wrote:

Religion does not make you eat or sleep or talk or do anything in any certain way. It only suggests that you do it a certain way. It is up to the person to choose. This is why people choose different sect of the same religion. They find a religion which matches the sins they wish to commit.

People typically chose a particular religious sect according to the way in which they were raised.

To say that people chose a religion due to the sins they wish to commit is truthiness, because it sounds plausible, but no where near truth. The statement suggests something remarkably negative about religious practitioner's mindset: about they way in which they approach their spiritual life.
Perhaps in some cases you are correct, but the claim, as a generalized accusation, amounts to another hasty generalization about religious practitioners.

@Icon,

It seems that many in this thread have missed the point entirely..

I am going to be as direct as possible in order to clear some things up.

1st: This thread was started as a response to the Atheism thread in this same section.

2nd: This thread was intended to be a joke. Read all of my posts and you will see what I mean.

3rd: The entire purpose of this thread was to show how any sort of relational generalization is wrong. Theism/Atheism are only one small element of morality. I never intended this to be a serious discussion and most of my posts in the first two pages were sarcastic. (I should have noted that and thought that I had made that clear in later posts.)

4th: Both of the threads in this section use unfair, unrealistic, untrue statements in order to point fingers at the opposing party. That is what I attempted to point out. I suppose it is just as well that the message was not recieved as it probably wuold have started a flame war.

5th: Christians who judge are taking perogative of divine judgement from God. As no man is perfect as god is, no man has the right to judge another man. "Do not try to pick the sawdust out of your brothers eye until you take the log out of your own." Matthew 7:3-5

@Icon,

If your point is that hasty generalizations are wrong, then stop making hasty generalizations.

@Icon,

Ethics is never a joke.

As the Western world is in the process of destroying itself with atheist corruption, this is especially true right now. That 'bailout' is fraud on the largest scale ever, and your grandchildren will most likely still be paying off that debt, many decades from now.

I am not sure of what the 'log' is that you are talking about. The metaphor should point to some actual ethical position, or it is a meaningless knee-jerk retaliation.

.....................
Proverbs 28:23
Correct someone, and afterwards he will appreciate it more than flattery.

Ezekiel 16:2
Mortal man, said the Lord, point out to Jerusalem what disgusting things she has done.

Ezekiel 23:45
Righteous men will condemn them on the charge of adultery and murder, because they practise adultery and their hands are stained with blood.

Ezekiel 59:2
It is because of your sins that he [God] does not hear you. It is your sins that separate you from God when you try to worship him.

Isaiah 59:15
There is so little honesty that anyone who stops doing evil finds himself the victim of crime.
.................

I find it sad that you pretend that this discussion had any humour in it.
It never did. Not even slightly.

When you lose your living and family and see your freinds lives and futures ruined by this alleged 'justice' system, this 'secular' pilfering, and child-murdering, whoring and frauding. I hope you remember to laugh at the 'joke'.

When your freinds are imprisoned for being honest people, like so many of mine have, we will be waiting for the laughter.

When your child is murdered without you having any say in the matter, like many of my freinds children have been, I wonder if you will laugh?

When your wife is sold by her father to be a whore, like mine was, I hope you can see the 'humour' in it.

All in the name of athiest 'law' : Godlessness.
And when your nation burns to the dust, rememer to 'laugh'.

@Poseidon,

Poseidon wrote:

Ethics is never a joke.

As the Western world is in the process of destroying itself with atheist corruption, this is especially true right now. That 'bailout' is fraud on the largest scale ever, and your grandchildren will most likely still be paying off that debt, many decades from now.

I am not sure of what the 'log' is that you are talking about. The metaphor should point to some actual ethical position, or it is a meaningless knee-jerk retaliation.

.....................
Proverbs 28:23
Correct someone, and afterwards he will appreciate it more than flattery.

Ezekiel 16:2
Mortal man, said the Lord, point out to Jerusalem what disgusting things she has done.

Ezekiel 23:45
Righteous men will condemn them on the charge of adultery and murder, because they practise adultery and their hands are stained with blood.

Ezekiel 59:2
It is because of your sins that he [God] does not hear you. It is your sins that separate you from God when you try to worship him.

Isaiah 59:15
There is so little honesty that anyone who stops doing evil finds himself the victim of crime.
.................

I find it sad that you pretend that this discussion had any humour in it.
It never did. Not even slightly.

When you lose your living and family and see your freinds lives and futures ruined by this alleged 'justice' system, this 'secular' pilfering, and child-murdering, whoring and frauding. I hope you remember to laugh at the 'joke'.

When your freinds are imprisoned for being honest people, like so many of mine have, we will be waiting for the laughter.

When your child is murdered without you having any say in the matter, like many of my freinds children have been, I wonder if you will laugh?

When your wife is sold by her father to be a whore, like mine was, I hope you can see the 'humour' in it.

All in the name of athiest 'law' : Godlessness.
And when your nation burns to the dust, remember to 'laugh'.

I think the best term for this is emotional over reaction. Frankly, God has nothing to do with the things you pointed out. God cannot even be proven and more atrocities have been created in the name of God than for any other reason. Bad people are bad people, regardless of religion.

As a matter of fact, in the old testament, there are passages which state that it is ok to sell your daughter as a sex slave so long as she is not used as a laborer.

Preach to someone who hasn't read the book... Also, The "log" I am referring to goes back to when jesus stopped the woman from being stoned by saying ye without sin, cast the first stone. What right do you have in the eyes of god to cast judgment before you have first judged yourself. What right do you have to pass judgment when you are guilty of the same transgressions against god?

Godlessness has nothing to do with immorality. I do not believe in god. So I am immoral. I'm sorry to inform you but that is as ignorant as saying that god interferes with daily life. Free will contradicts this and God is no liar.

What you just spewed is the exact type of fear doctrine that has ruined the love meant to be shared by the bible and other religious texts. How can you truly love when you are so terrified? Fear is the antithesis of love. So again, look for your own problems before pointing out mine. Once you have discovered and resolved all of your own issues, then we can talk. Until then, you have about as much room to talk as any other religious fanatic.

@Poseidon,

Poseidon wrote:

As the Western world is in the process of destroying itself with atheist corruption, this is especially true right now.

Yea, this post strikes me as nothing but lashing out. But the sentance I've quoted above illustrates Icon's illustrative point for having this thread at all.

What you've said here, Poseidon, is that this 'corruption' of which you speak is from atheists; or that it exists (or otherwise being exhibited) because of atheistic notions. If we look at even the broadest definition of what it means to be atheist I can't - even in the furthest stretch - see what disbelieving in god has to do with any sort of 'corruption'. I'd love to hear your rationale on why you attribute this to atheists, I really would.

It's almost as if you see this corruption and scramble to find someone on which to blame. Blaming atheists for corruption, spread of immorality, laziness or anything else echos of all the group-blame that's going on in the world today. Perhaps next week we'll blame women, Irishmen, blacks or Muslims.

So what happens when we attribute the ills of the world to one group? Can this ever end productively? Or are you 'itchin for a confrontation' on which to vent your anger? I don't know; but I'll refuse to descend to abject judgment of different peoples lest I exhibit the very type of behavior I detest.

If you; on the other hand, have a logical rationale for blaming atheists for corruption, I'd love to hear it. If not and you're just venting (and this is just blaming someone to have something on which to place blame), then I'll hope you feel better.

Thanks

@Icon,

Due to the nature of this thread and the actions and reason of the Atheism post being closed, I am closing this one as well. I do not see how any further conversation will breed anything but more flame wars and aggression.

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