What is this Fallacy called?

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LWSleeth
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 09:45 am
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian;51167 wrote:
It sounds like a variation of Ad Ignorantiam. A cannot be demonstrated. Therefore, not A. This isn't precisely what's going on here, but I think it's close enough.


I agree. I changed my original post three times, each time suggesting a different fallacy one might use to fault the "science is wrong" reasoning, including that it is a sort of a "reverse" ad ignorantiam. But to me the most general mistake made is that it's simply non sequitur; the conclusion that science is wrong does not follow from any premises given.
 
nerdfiles
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 10:11 am
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian;51167 wrote:
It sounds like a variation of Ad Ignorantiam. A cannot be demonstrated. Therefore, not A. This isn't precisely what's going on here, but I think it's close enough.

Science's lack of ability to demonstrate a scientific proposition isn't of itself evidence that the scientific proposition is wrong.

What is demonstrated is that science is not to be trusted as an infallible source of knowledge. Every scientific proposition should be taken with a grain of salt.


But is he saying, in the consequent, "the scientific proposition is wrong"?

How did you get that interpretation? It is not clear to me that this is the way we should interpret the consequent. Again: It reads "science is wrong"; does this mean "the scientific proposition is wrong"?

What is the relation between "uncertainty" and "wrongness"? Science self-imposes uncertainty when it accepts its principle of induction. If I say, "I'm uncertain that...", what good does it to tell me that I'm wrong? I've placed the possibility of being wrong in my uncertainty.

So what fallacy is there to speak of? {Uncertainty implies "wrongness"} is the claim made by this purported fallacy. But is this a fallacy that we know of which has a popular name? Or are we simply introducing a new fallacy?

The "Hasty generalization" interpretation interprets the second instance of "science" to mean "the whole of scientific discourse," as it were, to generalize about all of science based on some uncertainty about one proposition. This would also be, in this case, the fallacy of composition, since it would assume that science is "unified" in some absolute sense (that the biological sciences have just as much "rigor" as the social sciences, for instance).

I myself have considered Argument from ignorance, but though you consider it "close," I think it categorically distinct. And thus, it gets no closer than any of the other informal fallacies. My reason is that this example given by the original poster involves the concept of "uncertainty." Again, I say the example probably needs more meat added to it, for it is quite bare.

Is the original poster trying to say that "uncertainty implies non-proof"? Certainly science can provide a substantial about of evidence and a kind of proof, once which we commonly accept (the scientific method). But is uncertainty just another meaning of lacking proof. This concept of "uncertainty" makes the example prima facie not Argument from ignorance. But it may be that the original poster intended to say "has not provided a proof." Though, he didn't, which is why I think the example needs more explanation.

Take the example from Wikipedia:

[INDENT]"The student has failed to prove that he didn't cheat on the test, therefore he must have cheated on the test."[/INDENT]

This is Argument from ignorance: Now replace the antecedent with something like our original poster's example.

[INDENT]"The student is uncertain that he didn't cheat on the test, therefore he must have cheated on the test."[/INDENT]

Are they the same? Take me to be arguing that the claim to hasty generalization and the claim to argument from ignorance as the correct identification are false claims. I do not agree that this fallacy is hasty generalization or argument from ignorance, as my arguments above have pointed out.

Now I add that the antecedent and the consequent need further clarification.
 
nerdfiles
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 10:13 am
@LWSleeth,
LWSleeth;51170 wrote:
I agree. I changed my original post three times, each time suggesting a different fallacy one might use to fault the "science is wrong" reasoning, including that it is a sort of a "reverse" ad ignorantiam. But to me the most general mistake made is that it's simply non sequitur; the conclusion that science is wrong does not follow from any premises given.


I'll ask again, and it should be pretty easy to accomplish the task of providing possible answers to this question, since this is a philosophy forum:

[INDENT]What does it mean to say "science is wrong"?[/INDENT]

Entertain me, please. I mean, honestly, we're in a logic forum talking about logical fallacies. There's no reason why we should "move quickly about it." We're doing this for leisure, I thought.
 
Bonaventurian
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 10:27 am
@nerdfiles,
nerdfiles wrote:
"The student has failed to prove that he didn't cheat on the test, therefore he must have cheated on the test."
This is Argument from ignorance: Now replace the antecedent with something like our original poster's example.
[INDENT]"The student is uncertain that he didn't cheat on the test, therefore he must have cheated on the test."
[/INDENT]Are they the same? Take me to be arguing that the claim to hasty generalization and the claim to argument from ignorance as the correct identification are false claims. I do not agree that this fallacy is hasty generalization or argument from ignorance, as my arguments above have pointed out.

Now I add that the antecedent and the consequent need further clarification.


They're reading more or less the same to me.
 
nerdfiles
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 10:44 am
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian;51181 wrote:
They're reading more or less the same to me.


Did you read what I said about scientific proof?

"failed to prove" might mean "he did not provide any proof whatsoever" or "he did not attempt a proof" or "he did not try to provide evidence."

Science does not "fail to prove" in the sense that it does not provide evidence for its claims or attempt to provide evidence. Science has a method of proving its claims (the scientific method/induction). But it can still be uncertain in its claims.

"Proof" and "certain" are not synonyms for a reason. "Non-proof" and "uncertainty", as well, are not synonyms. It should be obvious that this is true and why it is true.

Thus, appeal to ignorance is the wrong identification, or it is at least questionable that it is the wrong identification, for it supposes that "uncertain" just means "failed to prove." But science has a method of proof. The problem is you do not accept the proof, but accepting the proof or not has no bearing on whether a scientist feels certain or convicted in his or her claim. Thus, it is essential, as said in a previous post, that we clarify what "certainty" is supposed to mean.
 
LWSleeth
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 11:47 am
@nerdfiles,
nerdfiles;51176 wrote:
I'll ask again, and it should be pretty easy to accomplish the task of providing possible answers to this question, since this is a philosophy forum:

[INDENT]What does it mean to say "science is wrong"?[/INDENT]

Entertain me, please. I mean, honestly, we're in a logic forum talking about logical fallacies. There's no reason why we should "move quickly about it." We're doing this for leisure, I thought.


The original question was this:

Quote:
What is the name of the argument/fallacy when you reject evidence that leads to proof when the proof is not 100%.

For example: Science cannot prove 100% how the origin of the universe came about. Therefore science is wrong.


Now, maybe you want to expand this into a philosophical discussion, but iI don't think that is answering the author's question (plus doesn't interest me enough since this problem is too simple).

Reading the author, he seems to be telling us he is debating someone making a ridiculous argument. My answers tend to want to help him show his opponent why his thinking is off. So I'm just being very common sense.

In arguments that people don't want to lose (usually because they are defending some emotionally-attached belief), they may use every tactic they can to "win" without caring much about the logic of it.

So I interpreted the statement "science is wrong" to be an emotional argument, most likely being made about creationism vs. a Big Bang beginning to creation. He wants to say "science is wrong" (about whatever is conflicting his emotional belief) if it can't prove its origin theory (and therefore his belief is defended).

If the OP had laid out a complex philosophical question, then I would have answered it that way. I think he is just looking for a term to attach to the silly argument that if you can't prove something then it isn't true.
 
nerdfiles
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 12:22 pm
@LWSleeth,
Quote:
Reading the author, he seems to be telling us he is debating someone making a ridiculous argument.


What? You got that from this:

Quote:
Original poster:What is the name of the argument/fallacy when you reject evidence that leads to proof when the proof is not 100%.

For example: Science cannot prove 100% how the origin of the universe came about. Therefore science is wrong.

I know that it is Argument of ... . It's the "..." part that I forget! Ugghhh!

Thanks


Please explain how you got this notion of the OP "debating someone" and thus,

Quote:
My answers tend to want to help him show his opponent why his thinking is off. So I'm just being very common sense.


As if I'm not trying to help, as if I'm not being common sensical. What you're doing is poisoning the well, which is an informal fallacy.
 
LWSleeth
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 03:50 pm
@nerdfiles,
nerdfiles;51203 wrote:
Please explain how you got this notion of the OP "debating someone"


Just an impression, that's all. Maybe he'll tell us if I guessed right.


nerdfiles;51203 wrote:
As if I'm not trying to help, as if I'm not being common sensical. What you're doing is poisoning the well, which is an informal fallacy.


Relax, I wasn't implying one single thing about you in mentioning either my common sense answer or wanting to help. I was just explaining why I didn't get into philosophical intricacies. If you think there is some profundity in this issue worth highlighting, why not start your own thread to bring it out for discussion?
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 06:09 pm
@gre107,
Quote:
What is the name of the argument/fallacy when you reject evidence that leads to proof when the proof is not 100%.

For example: Science cannot prove 100% how the origin of the universe came about. Therefore science is wrong.


The example is a bit misleading from the initial statement.

The first statement would be simply denial.
To reject the evidence when the evidence is statistically relevent (90% correlation for eg) just seems plainly obstructive.

It could also be termed 'being anal', as only in pure maths like Pythagorus' triangle is evidence 100%. REJECTING EVIDENCE, because it is not 100% is blatant denial. Rejecting the answer is not quite the same thing, and would be 'healthy scepticism', and not an error.

Science is a method, not a body of knowledge. So science is a method for reaching evidence, and is never evidence itself.

Rejecting a method because it in one instance does not give perfect results is another matter. I have intentionally forgotten all the latin, as instead I prefer to equate logic to set theory.

To equate 'science is wrong' with 'science is imperfect' would be 'to throw out the baby with the bath water'.

It is to confuse the concept 'some' with the concept 'all'.
As in : someone once got a math problem wrong, therefore all maths is wrong.

All that latin, would itself consitute a serious fallacy :
As in :
I use fancy latin words, therefore I must be right.
umm.. whats the latin for this error?
 
nerdfiles
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 07:41 pm
@LWSleeth,
Perfect solution fallacy? Nirvana fallacy?
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 02:11 am
@gre107,
gre107 wrote:
For example: Science cannot prove 100% how the origin of the universe came about. Therefore science is wrong.

I know that it is Argument of ... . It's the "..." part that I forget! Ugghhh!


If we just go by your example here, and not your definition (which is incorrect for the fallacy), then you are indeed speaking of the argumentum ad ignorantium or "appeal to ignorance".

Wiki wrote:

The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:

  • Something is currently unexplained or insufficiently understood or explained, so it is not (or must not be) true.
  • Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proven.

[/LIST]
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 05:12 am
@gre107,
I'm kind of surprised everyone has looked past what nerdfiles has astutely pointed out -- more clarification is needed.

Personally, I don't really even understand the antecedent: What exactly does "prove 100%" mean? Can I prove something 84%? "Proof" is defined as 'something that induces certainty or establishes validity', so it's assumed it's "100%". It's either proof, or it's not proof, what's with these percentages?

Not to mention, science doesn't prove anything. Science is a method for deriving a proposition which could prove something, or, at the least, lend proof.

And, as nerdfiles points out:

nerdfiles wrote:
Science self-imposes uncertainty when it accepts its principle of induction. If I say, "I'm uncertain that...", what good does it to tell me that I'm wrong? I've placed the possibility of being wrong in my uncertainty.


So, even if a proposition derived by the scientific method turned out to be wrong, what does this have anything to do with science in general, or "prove 100% how the origin of the universe came about"? I don't get it.

nerdfiles wrote:
But is he saying, in the consequent, "the scientific proposition is wrong"?

How did you get that interpretation? It is not clear to me that this is the way we should interpret the consequent. Again: It reads "science is wrong"; does this mean "the scientific proposition is wrong"?
I think, "The scientific proposition is wrong" was the intended interpretation for the consequent, yet we're not actually presented with any proposition. How can "science" be wrong? Would he mean the method (science) is inconclusive/insufficient for determining the origin of the universe? But to which proposition regarding 'the origin of the universe' is he speaking?

"Through scientific method we cannot prove the origin of the universe. Therefore, scientific method is wrong."

This isn't an argument of anything, it's called: Stupidity.
 
 

 
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