Critical Thinking vs. Ad Hominem Argument

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Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 03:42 am
One of the tenets of critical thinking is the adoption and subsequent delinquency of the Ad Hominem argument. The concept of espousing the details of an argument or claim by an individual, and yet somehow be insulated from personal evaluation by the intended audience appears to be created within the realm of careless consideration born from idealistic propensities. The Ad Hominem attack as a legitimate rhetorical tool is vitally important for the bases of the counter-argument. Upon close examination, the Ad Hominem attack should be a required component of the vetting process, and any serious evaluation demands the process of this consideration. The idealistic endeavor of uncoupling the messenger from the message is mundanely pathetic, and quite simply impossible. While most of the logical fallacies are built on consistent and rational critical thinking, the Ad Hominem argument FAILS the critical thinking test.
 
hammersklavier
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 08:04 am
@Ruthless Logic,
Heidigger? Bush? Men are capable of both good decisions and ill decisions. The weakness of ad hominem is that it inflates the ill decisions and simultaneously weakens the good ones. That is why we ought to criticize on the bases of ideas, rather than personality.
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 08:38 am
@Ruthless Logic,
Ruthless Logic wrote:
One of the tenets of critical thinking is the adoption and subsequent delinquency of the Ad Hominem argument. The concept of espousing the details of an argument or claim by an individual, and yet somehow be insulated from personal evaluation by the intended audience appears to be created within the realm of careless consideration born from idealistic propensities. The Ad Hominem attack as a legitimate rhetorical tool is vitally important for the bases of the counter-argument. Upon close examination, the Ad Hominem attack should be a required component of the vetting process, and any serious evaluation demands the process of this consideration. The idealistic endeavor of uncoupling the messenger from the message is mundanely pathetic, and quite simply impossible. While most of the logical fallacies are built on consistent and rational critical thinking, the Ad Hominem argument FAILS the critical thinking test.


I have to say that this is an argument you cannot win. I say this without malice, but not only do I not agree with you, I also have very little respect for your opinions on these matters.

If your logic turns out to be sound in all other manners (and really you don't use any logic, just restate the same proposition several times over), I can still reject it for the simple fact that I have found you to be wrong on most philosophical matters.

As for your actual opinion, suppose both I and Michael Dummett make the same argument against the validity of the ad hominem. If we make the same statements, how can it be possible that one argument can be true, while one false?
 
VideCorSpoon
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 09:08 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Ruthless Logic wrote:
One of the tenets of critical thinking is the adoption and subsequent delinquency of the Ad Hominem argument. The concept of espousing the details of an argument or claim by an individual, and yet somehow be insulated from personal evaluation by the intended audience appears to be created within the realm of careless consideration born from idealistic propensities.

How can you legitimize a personal attack against another beyond the scope of the original context of the debate? Many people use Ad hominem as a side wind to attack another person when they have run out of argumentative venues, so in that regard? people that do use ad hominem remarks are in many ways aware of the fact the only way to really prove to other people that the opponent is wrong is to discredit him/her and have that labeled bias stick to any weaker argument you may have. Seems like a last ditch method to me. Also, ad hominem is not as much for the debate as it is for the audience who views the debate. Does truth or falsity depend on the outcome of a debate utilizing an ad hominem remark to a crowd rather than the people debating the issue?

I don't subscribe to the fact that a person must be leveled with their arguments. That's a self-righteous assumption. We can talk about women's rights and not be women. Does that make us susceptible to ad hominem remarks regardless of the context of the philosophical underpinnings to which we may be entirely correct in asserting?

Ruthless Logic wrote:
The Ad Hominem attack as a legitimate rhetorical tool is vitally important for the bases of the counter-argument. Upon close examination, the Ad Hominem attack should be a required component of the vetting process, and any serious evaluation demands the process of this consideration. The idealistic endeavor of uncoupling the messenger from the message is mundanely pathetic, and quite simply impossible. While most of the logical fallacies are built on consistent and rational critical thinking, the Ad Hominem argument FAILS the critical thinking test.

Ad hominem is definitely not a legitimate rhetorical tool for counter argument. While rhetoric requires the speaker to convey the argument in a concise, eloquent, strategic, etc. way, rhetoric does not make an argument compared to the facts presented in the argument itself. All ad hominem remarks do is strip away the objectivity of a debate. What you want is to judge a book by its cover regardless of the information that's inside? and I don't think anyone is perfect enough to be immune to that.

But is it idealistic to uncouple the message from the messenger? I would argue that depending on the intelligence of the listener, the message will be taken in full context regardless of the messenger who delivers it. I'm not quite sure how that would be considered mundanely pathetic though? and even further impossible.

Also, I don't understand why you would negate your entire argument by saying "the ad hominem argument fails the critical thinking test" when you were supporting it for 95% of you post. Would you not want to say it passes the test?
 
Ruthless Logic
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 03:28 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
I have to say that this is an argument you cannot win. I say this without malice, but not only do I not agree with you, I also have very little respect for your opinions on these matters.

If your logic turns out to be sound in all other manners (and really you don't use any logic, just restate the same proposition several times over), I can still reject it for the simple fact that I have found you to be wrong on most philosophical matters.

As for your actual opinion, suppose both I and Michael Dummett make the same argument against the validity of the ad hominem. If we make the same statements, how can it be possible that one argument can be true, while one false?



First, my arguments are carefully developed and evaluated (won) before they are displayed in written composition. Second, your claim of restatements are laughably ironic, given that 70% of your post is comprised of this accusation, which indicates to me that you do not know what restatement means, and consequently my rejection of your verbage based on a rational and efficient evaluation of your personal capacity. Lastly, your careless paradoxical illustration is simply guilty of being a FALSE ANALOGY(logical fallacy). If an argument is presented identically, along with replicated encased claims, yet differing consensus is measured amongst the intended audience only indicates a wide range of quality receptors(natural world constraint) were present, and does not detract from the logical objectivity or validity of the presented argument.
 
VideCorSpoon
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 06:11 pm
@Ruthless Logic,
Ironically, Mr. Fight the Power in post #3 is utilizing the very same method you are trying to defend (and berate him for)? the ad hominem remark. You admit it yourself by saying that "? 70% of your (Mr. Fight the Power's) post is comprised of accusation." Isn't the fact that he is attacking your character a cornerstone of an ad hominem remark?

http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/members/videcorspoon/albums/vide-s-forum-awards-outstanding-achievement/521-logic-monkey-sez-fail-awarded-outstanding-logical-reasoning-philosophy.jpg
 
Catchabula
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 07:24 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
The Argumentum ad Hominem, complemented by the Argumentum ex Homine? Man and Argument? Let's add a dash of humanity to this silly game. Let me tell you the Sentimental Story of Baal, the bad Baal, der Teufel himself, arguing...

The Source:
Baal : Der b?se Baal der asoziale... / Bertolt Brecht - Frankfurt am Main : Suhrkamp Verlag, 1973. - 233 p. : ill. - (Edition Suhrkamp ; 248)
My translation is incomplete.

The Setting:
Berlin, 1934. Hitler is well established as Reichs-chancellor, the trains ride in time. Unemployment is low and the Crisis is becoming a thing of the past. The ladies love the uniforms. The New Regime is also adored by the bourgeois, who are becoming wealthier by the day. It's around Christmas and it's damn damn cold in the Friedrichstrasse...

The Beggar:
It is cold and I have no coat. I am freezing. There is a fine gentleman. Perhaps he can tell me what I can do against the cold? Good day sir.

Baal (not even looking at the beggar)
Don't you know you just don't talk like that to gentlemen in the street?

The Beggar:
I'm very cold sir, perhaps you can tell me what I can do against the cold?

Baal (showing the beggar his two overcoats)
It is not cold.

The Beggar
Could you please sir perhaps lend me one of your coats? I'm freezing sir, please...

Baal (looking at the beggar, astonished)
What is your name?

The Beggar:
My name is Joseph, sir. I am your brother on Earth.

Baal:
I have three brothers, one is called Anton, the other is called Karl... the third one.. damn, I forgot his name! Perhaps it was Joseph? I have to check it out. Can you come back tomorrow?

The Beggar;
But I am freezing sir. There is an old chair against the wall. I will break it to pieces and burn them.

Baal:
Give me the chair so I can sit down and think! Ah, these coats are heavy...
(After an hour of deep thinking)
I got it: I must give you hope, or you will freeze. Give me your vest, so I can sit more comfortably and think better. I have good ideas today...

The Beggar:
Thank you so much for thinking sir...

Baal:
Sit down at my feet Joseph, they are getting cold. Yes the world is indeed full of malice, and a lot is lacking in God's creation, let's take this cold. You are my brother, and perhaps our father had too many sons, who will say?. And one of the faults of man is that he is too much focussed on material things, take you Joseph. Would you still have come to me if you had not been cold? Didn't you just recognize me as your brother because I had two coats? Yes, now you are silent, because you know I'm right... [and Baal goes on like this for another hour, arguing, demonstrating, deducing, a deep objective thinker, a philosopher to the bone...]

The Beggar:
(Dies of the cold).

Baal:
Joseph, you were one of those predestined to freeze!
 
VideCorSpoon
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 08:44 pm
@Ruthless Logic,
Well Catchabula... I guess if you consider an ad hominem a divergence from the context of a given debate, I suppose that story was right on.
 
Ruthless Logic
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 09:17 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
VideCorSpoon wrote:
Ironically, Mr. Fight the Power in post #3 is utilizing the very same method you are trying to defend (and berate him for)? the ad hominem remark. You admit it yourself by saying that "? 70% of your (Mr. Fight the Power's) post is comprised of accusation." Isn't the fact that he is attacking your character a cornerstone of an ad hominem remark?

http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/members/videcorspoon/albums/vide-s-forum-awards-outstanding-achievement/521-logic-monkey-sez-fail-awarded-outstanding-logical-reasoning-philosophy.jpg



The only ironic confluence to occur is your own confabulation of understanding. Clearly, MFTP demonstrated his own accurate impression of the dubious accusation of the Ad Hominem Argument, which we both concurred. It just that his critical thinking is less refined, consequently exposing him to repeated attacks of credibility.
 
Ruthless Logic
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 09:19 pm
@Catchabula,
Catchabula wrote:
The Argumentum ad Hominem, complemented by the Argumentum ex Homine? Man and Argument? Let's add a dash of humanity to this silly game. Let me tell you the Sentimental Story of Baal, the bad Baal, der Teufel himself, arguing...

The Source:
Baal : Der b?se Baal der asoziale... / Bertolt Brecht - Frankfurt am Main : Suhrkamp Verlag, 1973. - 233 p. : ill. - (Edition Suhrkamp ; 248)
My translation is incomplete.

The Setting:
Berlin, 1934. Hitler is well established as Reichs-chancellor, the trains ride in time. Unemployment is low and the Crisis is becoming a thing of the past. The ladies love the uniforms. The New Regime is also adored by the bourgeois, who are becoming wealthier by the day. It's around Christmas and it's damn damn cold in the Friedrichstrasse...

The Beggar:
It is cold and I have no coat. I am freezing. There is a fine gentleman. Perhaps he can tell me what I can do against the cold? Good day sir.

Baal (not even looking at the beggar)
Don't you know you just don't talk like that to gentlemen in the street?

The Beggar:
I'm very cold sir, perhaps you can tell me what I can do against the cold?

Baal (showing the beggar his two overcoats)
It is not cold.

The Beggar
Could you please sir perhaps lend me one of your coats? I'm freezing sir, please...

Baal (looking at the beggar, astonished)
What is your name?

The Beggar:
My name is Joseph, sir. I am your brother on Earth.

Baal:
I have three brothers, one is called Anton, the other is called Karl... the third one.. damn, I forgot his name! Perhaps it was Joseph? I have to check it out. Can you come back tomorrow?

The Beggar;
But I am freezing sir. There is an old chair against the wall. I will break it to pieces and burn them.

Baal:
Give me the chair so I can sit down and think! Ah, these coats are heavy...
(After an hour of deep thinking)
I got it: I must give you hope, or you will freeze. Give me your vest, so I can sit more comfortably and think better. I have good ideas today...

The Beggar:
Thank you so much for thinking sir...

Baal:
Sit down at my feet Joseph, they are getting cold. Yes the world is indeed full of malice, and a lot is lacking in God's creation, let's take this cold. You are my brother, and perhaps our father had too many sons, who will say?. And one of the faults of man is that he is too much focussed on material things, take you Joseph. Would you still have come to me if you had not been cold? Didn't you just recognize me as your brother because I had two coats? Yes, now you are silent, because you know I'm right... [and Baal goes on like this for another hour, arguing, demonstrating, deducing, a deep objective thinker, a philosopher to the bone...]

The Beggar:
(Dies of the cold).

Baal:
Joseph, you were one of those predestined to freeze!



I want my 35 seconds back. Enough said!
 
Catchabula
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 10:43 pm
@Ruthless Logic,
It has just dawned to me that I have interrupted a valuable and constructive duscussion with a stupid and irrelevant story. Thanks for pointing it out. It will not happen again.
 
VideCorSpoon
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 11:13 pm
@Ruthless Logic,
Ruthless Logic wrote:
The only ironic confluence to occur is your own confabulation of understanding. Clearly, MFTP demonstrated his own accurate impression of the dubious accusation of the Ad Hominem Argument, which we both concurred. It just that his critical thinking is less refined, consequently exposing him to repeated attacks of credibility.

LOL! My own "confabulation of understanding?" Seriously??? Is it my discombobulating perniciousness that vexes you? LOL! And how would my statement be ironic within the context in which it was put forward? LOL! How profound we think we are! LOL!

But I have always found it interesting that when it comes to these comments, the person usually never addresses the previous comments which actually propel the discussion. Personally, I think it is because they are incapable of answering them so they initiate some sort of ad hominem remark as a last ditch effort to save face.

But on a serious note, I don't think it is wise to throw insults at other members and not take serious concern for your own deficiencies. And believe me, saying that Mr. Fight the Power's critical thinking abilities are less refined is the least of your problems considering that the only argument you have been able to put forward is an extremely problematic argument for validating personal attacks. Even better than that, I think there comes along that rare person that congratulates themselves (i.e. your post #5) for a job well done before the discussion has even gone half way through its span where you state;
Ruthless Logic wrote:
First, my arguments are carefully developed and evaluated (won) before they are displayed in written composition.

Well, I guess I'll just repeat what you said originally? what a profoundly good job Ruthless. LOL!
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 11:55 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
A true critical thinker will not have to resort to the ad hominem in order to find ways in persuading the other. However, the ad hominem seems logical to me, it's about following statistics, not necessarily an immoral prejudice.

In understanding the psychological reasons behind certain beliefs, is that not ad hominem? Or do I have to blurt it out?
 
Ruthless Logic
 
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2009 01:57 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Also, I don't understand why you would negate your entire argument by saying "the ad hominem argument fails the critical thinking test" when you were supporting it for 95% of you post. Would you not want to say it passes the test?
Quote:




My initial post was comprised of 6 sentences. EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM attacking the credibility of the ad hominem accusation, yet you process the sequential flow of information 180 degrees from static reality(the post), and you want me to consider your responses with any seriousness when you have carelessly and utterly failed the reading comprehension component of the claim. Until this woeful mishap is reconciled, and some form of measurable credibility can be reestablished, the discussion CANNOT move forward.

P.S. This situation clearly offers how the ad hominem is a required process and efficient rhetorical tool for detailed evaluation.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2009 02:11 pm
@Ruthless Logic,
Ruthless Logic wrote:
This situation clearly offers how the ad hominem is a required process and efficient rhetorical tool for detailed evaluation.
Isn't rhetoric at complete odds with critical evaluation?

Rhetoric is the art of persuasion.

A critical analysis in logical terms should lead to a given conclusion irrespective of rhetoric. In other words, it should be immune to ad hominem.

Plato and Socrates continually lambasted the Sophists because they thought that rhetoric was more or less a logical abomination.

So I completely agree with you that ad hominem is useful for rhetorical purposes, i.e. the art of persuasion.

But that's a pretty Machiavellian way of coming to a consensus. Logical discourse is the opposite, because the object is to ascertain the truth, not to convince.
 
VideCorSpoon
 
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2009 03:13 pm
@Aedes,
Ruthless Logic,

Ruthless Logic wrote:

My initial post was comprised of 6 sentences. EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM attacking the credibility of the ad hominem accusation, yet you process the sequential flow of information 180 degrees from static reality(the post), and you want me to consider your responses with any seriousness when you have carelessly and utterly failed the reading comprehension component of the claim. Until this woeful mishap is reconciled, and some form of measurable credibility can be reestablished, the discussion CANNOT move forward.

P.S. This situation clearly offers how the ad hominem is a required process and efficient rhetorical tool for detailed evaluation.

So? you really (and keep in mind that all your previous comments can be read at any time by everyone else) are actually supposing now that you are against the ad hominem remark? Seriously??? Static reality? Seriously????Now I don't blame you for getting lost in your argument. There are some words with less than common connotations which can make even the best of beginners lost in translation.

Unfortunately? you are not attacking the credibility of the ad hominem remark. Let's examine the supposed rebuttal of the ad hominem "attack" in post #1 shall we?

Ruthless Logic wrote:
One of the tenets of critical thinking is the adoption and subsequent delinquency of the Ad Hominem argument. The concept of espousing the details of an argument or claim by an individual, and yet somehow be insulated from personal evaluation by the intended audience appears to be created within the realm of careless consideration born from idealistic propensities. The Ad Hominem attack as a legitimate rhetorical tool is vitally important for the bases of the counter-argument. Upon close examination, the Ad Hominem attack should be a required component of the vetting process, and any serious evaluation demands the process of this consideration. The idealistic endeavor of uncoupling the messenger from the message is mundanely pathetic, and quite simply impossible. While most of the logical fallacies are built on consistent and rational critical thinking, the Ad Hominem argument FAILS the critical thinking test.

You refer to an ad hominem attack as "vitally important for the bases of the counter argument." You then state that "? the ad hominem attack should be a required component of the vetting process." You then state that "the idealistic uncoupling the messenger from the message is mundanely pathetic." And from these given statements, which are available to see on your very first post, you suppose that you are against the ad hominem remark? Now, I could understand plausible deniability in a verbal interaction? but c'mon man? all this stuff is written down as evidence to reflect your own viewpoints. Now I am giving you more credit than what I fear may have actually happened, that your argument was ill-conceived and lacked a logical structure. So I am basing my opinions on what your argument actually implies. Suffice to say that you cannot change your mind half way through about what you were really trying to say when you are obviously saying something entirely different.

But I have yet to see any constructive rebuttals from you about any of my arguments I put forward in post #4. The most I have seen from you is self congratulations and deniability? which are not impressive in the least. I suppose you do not see any problem with that, so I guess it is up to your capabilities to put forward an argument or not. And to be honest, I wouldn't bring up issues of credibility, especially considering the persons involved? just a thought.
 
Ruthless Logic
 
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2009 08:46 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
Unfortunately? you are not attacking the credibility of the ad hominem remark.
Quote:




WHAT? You cannot be serious, right? You actually reread the post and only come up with plausible deniability for my assertions. At this time, I would like to borrow a quote from Tony McAuliffe, a famous WWII General "NUTS".


P.S. Once you acknowledge your utter misunderstanding, I will address your problematic claim pertaining to the ad hominem attack.
 
Kolbe
 
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2009 09:06 pm
@Ruthless Logic,
You do realise you are arguing about arguing? Just thought I'd say...
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2009 09:11 pm
@Ruthless Logic,
RL, I've gone back and looked, and to be honest I'm not sure what your position is. The writing is unclear. It looks like you're disparaging it as a logical tool but celebrating it as a necessary evil.
 
JLP
 
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2009 12:02 am
@Aedes,
RL, it sounds like you are making a McCluhanesque assertion-- that the medium is the message and, through argumentation, the person positing the argument is the medium and therefore the message?
 
 

 
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