Is Theism An Excuse To Embrace Immoral Behaviour?
I'm a little perplexed. In the above heading I simply removed the 'A' in Theism. Think about it.
Now, I've read and re-read this original post and I have to say I simply do not understand. Is there a certain group this is directed at? Is there something happening with a certain group of atheists in high positions of government or other that I'm not aware of. Honestly, I watch very little news so I'm not as informed as many of you. Now onto the thread.
Is the atheism of modern, Western people just an excuse for them to get away with acting in ways that are immoral?
Pyth, this is confusing... very confusing IMHO. I had no idea that Atheists were immoral, I thought people were immoral. Any atheist I have ever met has held to a higher moral standard than most religious people I've met, but then again, the only thing that separates them is the doctrine of another man.
What I'm suggesting is that a great bulk of the Western individuals who claim to be atheists have NOT arrived at the position of atheism as the natural result of theological inquiry; but rather that they have arrived at their atheism because it is the position that excuses the kind of behviour that under any other circumstances would be considered as bad conduct (behaviour such as supporting Democratic Socialism as a form of government, which removes responsibility from the level of the individual and allows for an encroaching despotism from the rule of the few within big, oversized or Super-sized, government).
Just lost me. You're suggesting that people that claim atheism or the belief that there is no Gods or deities are doing it to excuse bad behavior? Is this correct? I actually think it's the other way around. Take the word Atheism and replace it with Theism and then it will start to make more sense... I think.
I'm not necessarily an Atheist but I'm also not a dead nut either. If I should be a theist then which man should I allow to mould and shape my mind? Who should I believe? Satan made me do it!... and why does God allow evil into the world? Do you see my point?
The word Atheism is a label. It's a label that one man places on another to describe skepticism. Should we just follow the Kock-a-mainey beliefs that have been indoctrinated into man... If so, which one? Isn't this the blind leading the blind? I really do not understand the point of your original post.
So atheism is embraced merely because it gives these individuals freedom from the constraints that any normal society would naturally place upon the individual. The embrace of atheism and despotic Democratic Socialism gives the individual an incredible amount of freedom (if by freedom we include the wanton rage of unconscious desire and appetite).
Is theism normal society? What can we call normal? Let's all line up with blind folds on and touch each others' shoulders and follow the person ahead of us.
If anything, Theism provides the excuse. We just talked about this with my theistic family not days ago. One of them admitted that they are Hypocrites, the difference is that they go to church and they've given their life to Christ and worship Christ and are forgiven when they sin. OMG - If that's theism give me more atheism. At least an Atheist is going to be moral for valid reasons. I might add that I've observed things with this particular theist that I perceive to be immoral... but, God, Jesus and Satan are the scapegoat if nothing at all.
Immorality is an individual choice and from what I've observed in business, life, watching and living, there's much more immorality practiced in religious doctrines than in atheism. From a business perspective, my worst customers are the born again theists. My wife was a waitress and her worst day at work was Sunday when all the moral theists came in after church and stiffed her on tips. C'mon, get real and don't get me started on the immorality and prostitution of mankind made by religions and mystical deity's and scapegoats galore.
But this freedom under immoral socialism is done for private pleasure as opposed to theological or philosophical conviction. It is private pleasure masquerading as a human right, the thrall of food and sex and money as true freedom in the midst of government encroachment and shrinking responsibilities of the individual.
Religion has shrunk the responsibility of the individual. An individual isn't responsible because God has a plan for their life. Pyth, I'm simply perplexed.
It is this political component that seems to be the key for me. I ask myself: why would an atheist need to fight against Christianity or be political at all? Why can't they be silent atheists? And the answer is that their atheism is political because its purpose is to give them immunity for what could be universally recognized as bad or immoral behaviour. Atheism is about immoral behaviour NOT about the possibility of theology.
I wholeheartedly disagree and I'm not an atheist or a theist I'm a human being. This is a broad generalization and untrue. You see, it's the Theist that is constantly telling everyone how they should live and what they should do and not the other way around. The Theist has the immunity under God or Allah or whatever you choose to call that deity in the sky.
"Atheism is about immoral behaviour NOT about the possibility of theology."
Wrong. Here's what I pulled out of Wikipedia:[INDENT]Atheism
, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of belief in the nonexistence
of a god
or the rejection of theism
It is also
defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism
Many self-described atheists
of all supernatural
beings and cite a lack of empirical
evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular
philosophies such as humanism
there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere;
and some religions
, such as Jainism
, do not require belief in a personal god
The term atheism
originated as a pejorative epithet
applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion.
With the spread of freethought
, scientific skepticism
, and criticism of religion
, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and has been increasingly used as a self-description by atheists.
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi.
AMEN BROTHER! Love the unlovely. Forgive 70 x 7, turn the other cheek and be the change you expect to see in others. Those aren't words of a hypocrite with a free pass to heaven through a religious belief.
You know what gives acceptance to immorality? Collective hate and group rage such as we're seeing on this thread. Get enough people together who agree in their protestations and rational thinking goes out of the window. There's nothing more immoral than a club with a cause. It takes a group like Catholics to do something as immoral as throwing stones at children going to a Protestant school, as in Northern Ireland a few years back. Religion just gives you one more reason to attack people.
True. They'll run you over pulling out of the church parking lot because they are forgiven through the blood of the lamb.
First let me apologize for my outburst. After years of observing the same back and forth dialog it truly becomes hard to take. It just seems whenever the higher values of man that "may" constitute morality, such as respect, decency, character, trust, responsibility, compassion, understanding, truth, honesty, faith enter any dialog religion enters the picture when it truly has nothing to do with those higher values.
Thanks for cleaning up the rant William. The back and forth is good for the mind and soul and with it we wake up. All these values discussed are a personal choice in a collective world. We choose to believe in one thing or another and we choose to be moral or immoral. We choose everything and likewise create it.
If I am correct, what Pyth is saying many who, for whatever reason cannot abide by those higher values use religion as a scapegoat thinking if they could just wipe out religion, any semblance of morality would go with it, giving the relief they so desperately need from the guilt that torments them. IMO.
Are you sure? If that's what Pyth is saying or means, then I'm more lost than I was when I started. Maybe I've read it wrong. If so, please pyth correct me because I've sort of gone on a rant with this. Goes to show that what one person perceives to be one thing, someone else may perceive it to be different.
I have often wondered why they complain so much? They are protected within the law and are untouchable. Then I realized, it's simple. The reason these who make the most noise want religion and God obliterated is because on the outside chance there is a God, they won't go to hell alone.
I don't necessarily agree with this. Hell is something that man not only defines and describes but it's something he also creates. Religion and God are also defined by man just as hell is. Heaven and Hell and inside man and not something separate from mankind just as God is not separate from God's creation. I don't even like the term God because it's automatically imaged as a deity outside of humankind.
The only reason I could see for removing God and Religion would be so that humankind would wake up and start taking responsibility for what we are doing to our neighbors, our friends, our constituents, our enemies and everyone else we encounter. If there were no God and no Religion, then the burden lies upon the shoulder of man and there would be no scapegoat so in essence, man would finally wake up to what was described in the 'Sermon on the Mount'.
Khethil, you said: "In fact, what I tend to see is that the considered atheist is generally quite moral since their ethos doesn't pawn off responsibility for acts (good and bad) on ethereal concepts such as 'god', fate, predestination, preordination, karma or the like. This leads the atheist to a place where they've no scapegoat on which to relieve responsibility."
Khethil - High five, thumbs up.
Then, why make such a fuss? Why would they care? I'm sorry I think you are very wrong here. You perception of the theist "pawning" off responsibility to a higher power is IMO and immense exaggeration and one that ads fuel to the fire and offers justification for those "loud" atheists to refer to those of faith as the herd, when in actually if the truth were known their faith provides them with a respite they need to exist in this chaotic world. A world the atheist finds, in all probability, no problem with since they are going to end up spending the rest of eternity in a dark black hole anyway, or so they think. How could there be any morality in a life that ends in such a manner?
I have one word to say to all this. BALANCE! We live in a chaotic world because people have taken leaps of faith rather than work in balance with God and our fellow human beings. Chaos is a result of false faiths based on ignorant claims and beliefs of one blind man being led by another. Forget the rabbit hole, forget the desire and the search, forget philosophy... Oh ye of little faith. Let's just put the blindfolds on and blame the chaos of the world on anything but our own creativity and lack of BALANCE! - Which is expressed so lovely in all of creation.
I am not saying that there aren't some atheists who have genuinely studied the matter and have fairly come to the conclusion that there is not God. These I have respectfully called 'silent atheists'. I am speaking here rather of those who hide their political and social support for basic immorality under the label of atheism. They use atheism as a kind of "get-out-of-responsibility-for-free" card. As long as Christianity is an evil in their minds they can do anything they please, there is no lowest point of human depravity for them.
I'm not an atheist but I'm not dead either. I refuse to put the blindfold of faith just as I refuse to put a noose around my neck and call it a day.
When it's all said and done Pyth, WHO are the ATHEISTS you refer to in your original post? I've not met these but I do know that people call themselves all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. We tend to label everything and are very judgmental.
That's my rant after reading this thread. Please forgive me if I've offended anyone as that was not the intent at all. If I've misread something or perceived something to be something it's not, then I stand corrected.
I'm not an atheist. I'm not a Christian. I'm not an ism or an ist. I'm a human being that is searching for truth in this journey of life and thankful to be here with you all to experience it.