# Can you win?

Thu 1 Feb, 2007 11:54 am
consider the sum of all happiness that you have had:
• If it exists you will loose it when you loose everything and if you have something left when you are dead, there is a you that have something which is impossible. The sum of all happiness will become zero when you die, ie. You will not have had any happiness all in all
• If it does not exist it was nothing you had in the first place, you cannot have it, hence there is nothing to fight for.
Winning is seemingly impossible considering this, any comments?

boagie

Thu 1 Feb, 2007 01:31 pm
@Refus,
Refus,

You are as obsure as ever,but I think there is a logic there that if stated differently---more simply---then the rational for the conclusion would be apparent to all.At any rate keep the wheels turning my good fellow!!

Refus

Thu 1 Feb, 2007 01:45 pm
@Refus,
Is that somewhat better?

boagie

Thu 1 Feb, 2007 02:11 pm
@Refus,
Refus wrote:
X is the sum of all happiness that you have had:
• "If it exists you will loose it when you loose everything and if you have something left when you are dead, there is a you that have something which is impossible."
Refus,the above simply states you loose everything when you die --------no? And if you still feel you have something,your not dead.

• "If it does not exist it was nothing you had in the first place, you cannot have it, hence happiness is not additive and there is nothing to fight for."
Refus,frankly I do not understand this,the above statements.

Winning is seemingly impossible considering this, any comments?

Death is something that awaits everyone,and it is true at that time you loose everything including your life--so,yes, in this sense we all loose.

Refus

Fri 2 Feb, 2007 02:59 am
@Refus,
Refus wrote:
consider the sum of all happiness that you have had:
• If it exists you will loose it when you loose everything and if you have something left when you are dead, there is a you that have something which is impossible. The sum of all happiness will become zero when you die, ie. You will not have had any happiness all in all
• If it does not exist it was nothing you had in the first place, you cannot have it, hence there is nothing to fight for.
Winning is seemingly impossible considering this, any comments?

Unfortunately these things get rather long when you try to formulate them, i will make some more attempts.

Refus

Fri 2 Feb, 2007 03:14 am
@Refus,
The signature is the best so far.

Demen Tolden

Sat 10 Feb, 2007 04:55 am
@Refus,
This is probably just a tad slightly off topic, but reading this today I thought of this discussion and how similar it is.

After Krishna kills his cruel uncle Kans who was king in Mathura, men, gods, and saints were delighted, but the king's wives came forth to morn. Krishna, seeing their grief, comforted them with his primal wisdom: "Mother," he said, "do not grieve. No one can live and not die. To imagine oneself as possessing anything is to be mistaken; nobody is father, mother, or son. There is only the continuous round of birth and death."

Thrym

Sat 10 Feb, 2007 05:31 pm
@Demen Tolden,
I don't understand what you mean when you say "winning"?

winning what? what is it that you are talking about that we can win or loose against

Josh

Refus

Sun 11 Feb, 2007 04:29 am
@Refus,
Win eternal happiness or loose everything.

Thrym

Sun 11 Feb, 2007 10:47 am
@Refus,
I understand sort of, but I don't see what the point is in considering death as a win loose situation. If you don't believe in any kind of afterlife then surely all you're doing is reiterating the obvious that when you die you loose everything. I don't mean to be rude but I don't see the point in this analogy

Josh

Neshama

Sun 11 Feb, 2007 11:06 am
@Thrym,
First you must define happiness? Is it having money, respect, etc.? From our physical senses we only see physical gains. True happiness is within the soul. When we develop and attain the higher sense - that which connects us to the upper world, then we attain true happiness. The gains of the soul are never lost. So yes you CAN win!

"Open your heart for me slightly, and I'll open the world for you." - The Zohar http://www.kabbalah.info

Thrym

Sun 11 Feb, 2007 11:15 am
@Neshama,
Is happiness not just an emotion? Like guilt. If so then it is easily defined by ourselves you know when you are happy and when you are not, therefore we all surely know what happiness means. everyone has happiness defined in there head. "happiness" is feeling good.

"From our physical senses" ... please tell me about our non physical ones im intrigued. I

"From our physical senses we only see physical gains. True happiness is within the soul."

From our physical sense we obtain the ability to think your "soul" would not exist were it not for your physical senses.

Mr Fight the Power

Tue 13 Feb, 2007 09:23 pm
@Refus,
Refus wrote:
consider the sum of all happiness that you have had:
• If it exists you will loose it when you loose everything and if you have something left when you are dead, there is a you that have something which is impossible. The sum of all happiness will become zero when you die, ie. You will not have had any happiness all in all
• If it does not exist it was nothing you had in the first place, you cannot have it, hence there is nothing to fight for.
Winning is seemingly impossible considering this, any comments?

I wouldn't want eternal happiness, it actually seems nonsensical.

In the end, we all lose; in the present it is possible to win. So enjoy the present.

Refus

Tue 20 Feb, 2007 03:13 am
@Refus,
Yes, sum of gain is lost for loss.

Eizsentouve

Tue 6 Mar, 2007 08:04 pm
@Refus,
Happiness is what one feels when the physical senses are positively stimulated and certain 'happiness' chemicals seep from the brain to the rest of body. Note: Positive stimulus is variable

After death all that is physical is taken back from the earth to be used for other new life. Without the existence of the soul and spirit, this is the end of the journey. One 'lives' on in memory and, vaugely, in whatever spawns from one's remains. Note: The path of Hindu reincarnation has one's conciousness return in other physical bodies. Whether the return is endless I am not sure, it's not appetizing.

With the soul and spirit, the journey goes on. The physical becomes a done phase and all the happiness (and sorrow) remain a memory of the spirit. Whatever the transcended non-physical reality is like there is order or its existence would collapse on itself, taking the physical with it. The physical universe, since it began, will end. The non-physical (it's source) is where the real infinite energy is and the transcendance into it, mathematically supports all possibilites thereafter.

As an extention of infinite energy the infitie possibilites lie in us, only limited by the laws of our universe and the ego. A personal understanding of them and some discipline should make for some very remarkable things...

I think.

Refus

Thu 8 Mar, 2007 02:14 am
@Refus,
It will take an eternity for something eternaly big to end, hence the end of eternity is irrelevant.

alsy58

Tue 13 Mar, 2007 04:49 pm
@Refus,
So,if the end of eternity is irrelevantI guess therel be no judgement day

Refus

Wed 14 Mar, 2007 03:50 am
@Refus,
Exactly. Good thinking.

Neshama

Wed 14 Mar, 2007 10:57 am
@Refus,
We perceive the world using our five senses. These senses are very limited. We define or feel happiness based on these senses. We are happy many time a day. - When we are hungry we eat and we are happy. When we are tired we sleep and we are happy. But is this really happines or is this just satisfying our corporeal desires?

We desire things - so we go out and buy them - are we happy then? Imagine you are a millionair and you can buy anything you want to satisfy all of your desires. you will be sitting in a place surrounded by all of your possesions? Are you happy?

We want to be appreciated, liked, respected etc.? How do you attain that? Well, some people may buy their friends. Are these real friends? So you really need to think about what it is that truly makes you happy. Is it having things respect money - material things? Are your desires limited to material things?

All these are base on our limited five senses. An additional sense can be attained through which the perception is expounded to percieve infinit light and true happines.

Happiness can be attained in this life.

Are you happy? What makes you happy? Why would you ask this question if you are happy and/or feel complete?

Here are some link that explain it in a very good way.

[CENTER][CENTER]Happiness[/CENTER]
[CENTER]
Q: What is happiness?[/CENTER]
[CENTER]A: Happiness is the sensation of the fulfillment of the internal[/CENTER]
[CENTER]capabilities of man. It is fully clarified only when we realize precisely[/CENTER]
[CENTER]what and how we should fulfill, what are goal is, how eternal it is and[/CENTER]
[CENTER]independent, and to what extent it is the one meaningful thing in the[/CENTER]
[CENTER]world that is now being realized.[/CENTER]
[CENTER] [/CENTER]
[CENTER]In other words, happiness is the sensation of nearing the Creator,[/CENTER]
[CENTER]because that is the purpose of creation-a sensation of advancement[/CENTER]
[CENTER]toward a never-ending wholeness.[/CENTER][/CENTER]

http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/science_and_kabbalah/presentations/the_kabbalah_experience.htm

[CENTER][CENTER]Perception of Reality[/CENTER]
[CENTER] [/CENTER]
[CENTER]http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/science_and_kabbalah/presentations/the_kabbalah_experience.htm
[/CENTER]
[CENTER] [/CENTER][/CENTER]

Neshama

Wed 14 Mar, 2007 10:58 am
@Refus,
We perceive the world using our five senses. These senses are very limited. We define or feel happiness based on these senses. We are happy many time a day. - When we are hungry we eat and we are happy. When we are tired we sleep and we are happy. But is this really happines or is this just satisfying our corporeal desires?

We desire things - so we go out and buy them - are we happy then? Imagine you are a millionair and you can buy anything you want to satisfy all of your desires. you will be sitting in a place surrounded by all of your possesions? Are you happy?

We want to be appreciated, liked, respected etc.? How do you attain that? Well, some people may buy their friends. Are these real friends? So you really need to think about what it is that truly makes you happy. Is it having things respect money - material things? Are your desires limited to material things?

All these are base on our limited five senses. An additional sense can be attained through which the perception is expounded to percieve infinit light and true happines.

Happiness can be attained in this life.

Are you happy? What makes you happy? Why would you ask this question if you are happy and/or feel complete?

Here are some link that explain it in a very good way.

[CENTER]Happiness[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Q: What is happiness?
[CENTER]A: Happiness is the sensation of the fulfillment of the internal
capabilities of man. It is fully clarified only when we realize precisely
what and how we should fulfill, what are goal is, how eternal it is and
independent, and to what extent it is the one meaningful thing in the
world that is now being realized.[/CENTER]

[CENTER]In other words, happiness is the sensation of nearing the Creator,
because that is the purpose of creation-a sensation of advancement
toward a never-ending wholeness.[/CENTER]

[/CENTER]

http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/science_and_kabbalah/presentations/the_kabbalah_experience.htm

[CENTER]Perception of Reality[/CENTER]

[CENTER]http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/science_and_kabbalah/presentations/the_kabbalah_experience.htm

[/CENTER]