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Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 04:34 pm
I've recently moved to indianapolis, indiana from windsor, ontario. I'm quite the outgoing guy and people person but have yet to make a friend in these parts. I woke up this morning and felt quite grey and outside myself as a Not-Being (not a subjective/I). I was full of emotion and lost myself in the nature (if i may call it that) around me. These series of events are what have me as a new member of this forum.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 04:38 pm
@nietzschedude,
Do you believe in fate or destiny?

Welcome your future is here,
your future has found you.

Welcome.
 
nietzschedude
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 06:03 pm
@sometime sun,
Do I believe in fate or destiny?

My answer to that starts at the word believe and is motivated by eliminative materialism. Perhaps a philisophicaly bumming but interesting theory that is eliminative materialism--proponed by the Churchland as the one that rejects any beliefs, desires etc. leads me to say neither.
I would instead say that it depends on a series of cause and effect relationships. However, my metaphysical view is one that thinks that in any possbile "eye of God", like that suggested by Spinoza and in a different way through the notion of temporality by Heidegger is such that there is a certain determinate fate/destiny in our lives. Through this view time is as one, it may also very well be the same kind of time over and over again in the same way as per Nietzsche's eternal recurrence.

I guess thats my answer, in a summarized form.
 
mister kitten
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 06:20 pm
@nietzschedude,
WElcome!
Do you have the Nietzsche moustache to go with your name? Smile
 
nietzschedude
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 07:22 pm
@mister kitten,
Haahahah oh Mr.Kitten, I don't know what I find more amusing, your username or your question.

I don't currently have the Nietzsche moustache to go along with it. About 6 months ago, however, I did sport this (which is close? hopefuly it loads)
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/sukrat/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-5.jpg[/IMG]
 
Bill Maxwell
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 07:58 pm
@nietzschedude,
nietzschedude;163158 wrote:
Do I believe in fate or destiny?

My answer to that starts at the word believe and is motivated by eliminative materialism. Perhaps a philisophicaly bumming but interesting theory that is eliminative materialism--proponed by the Churchland as the one that rejects any beliefs, desires etc. leads me to say neither.
I would instead say that it depends on a series of cause and effect relationships. However, my metaphysical view is one that thinks that in any possbile "eye of God", like that suggested by Spinoza and in a different way through the notion of temporality by Heidegger is such that there is a certain determinate fate/destiny in our lives. Through this view time is as one, it may also very well be the same kind of time over and over again in the same way as per Nietzsche's eternal recurrence.

I guess thats my answer, in a summarized form.


Isn't eliminative materialism self-refuting? The eliminative materialist believes in rejecting beliefs... This is too simplistic an error. Am I wrong in supposing this to be the case? Is eliminative materialism self-refuting?
 
nietzschedude
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 08:43 pm
@Bill Maxwell,
Bill:

Good question. Now as Paul Churchland has outlined, folk psychology i.e use of concepts such as beliefs desires etc. are here to stay. In fact, he himself (as well as other proponents of EM) uses wording such as "I believe" in his own work!

Yet the rejection of such statements is in their use, descriptive and epistemological use. That philosophers have for the longest time justified their beliefs in deductive reasoning that end at the concept of "belief" itself is what Churchland is trying to get at here. Again, this is a refutation of folk psychology (so in this case, maybe I was being too eager in displaying my philosophical knowledge when answering the question "do you believe in fate or destiny"). Thus, more developed philisophical systems go further than just "I believe" such and such and base it on their understanding of reality as they have systematicaly studied it.

However, what Churchland is ultimately getting at is that there are no solid "beliefs" as custom has them appropriated. That is, if someone believes in God, for example, it is not a spiritual, transcendental, immaterial belief as such...instead, it is simply the way our brains store information. Therefore, it gives the truly rational, descriptive and legitimate answers to why person X believes in God to neuroscience. So, we may imagine, that a person believes in God not because he has a spiritual connection with him and "feels" God or even "loves" (love as in something immaterial and thus transcendental) God, but because of the organization of his material brain and its respective processes.

So what it comes down to is the common (folk) use of these terms and how they relate to ones psyche (thus, folk psychology).

I hope this answers your question.
 
Bill Maxwell
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 08:55 pm
@nietzschedude,
nietzschedude;163203 wrote:
Bill:

Good question. Now as Paul Churchland has outlined, folk psychology i.e use of concepts such as beliefs desires etc. are here to stay. In fact, he himself (as well as other proponents of EM) uses wording such as "I believe" in his own work!

Yet the rejection of such statements is in their use, descriptive and epistemological use. That philosophers have for the longest time justified their beliefs in deductive reasoning that end at the concept of "belief" itself is what Churchland is trying to get at here. Again, this is a refutation of folk psychology (so in this case, maybe I was being too eager in displaying my philosophical knowledge when answering the question "do you believe in fate or destiny"). Thus, more developed philisophical systems go further than just "I believe" such and such and base it on their understanding of reality as they have systematicaly studied it.

However, what Churchland is ultimately getting at is that there are no solid "beliefs" as custom has them appropriated. That is, if someone believes in God, for example, it is not a spiritual, transcendental, immaterial belief as such...instead, it is simply the way our brains store information. Therefore, it gives the truly rational, descriptive and legitimate answers to why person X believes in God to neuroscience. So, we may imagine, that a person believes in God not because he has a spiritual connection with him and "feels" God or even "loves" (love as in something immaterial and thus transcendental) God, but because of the organization of his material brain and its respective processes.

So what it comes down to is the common (folk) use of these terms and how they relate to ones psyche (thus, folk psychology).

I hope this answers your question.


Ok. I agree that thoughts, feelings, beliefs, desires, and all these operations of the mind are not immaterial. They are indeed part of the physical world. My belief that I am at a computer desk can be translated into the processing of information or the firing of specific neurons in the brain. So I have now acknowledged that belief and the brain activity that it is identical to. This, if I'm not mistaken, is a theory of mind called Mind/Brain Identity Theory.

The use of the word 'belief' rather than referring to neurological brain processes seems perfectly adequate.

I don't understand why Eliminative Materialism wants to get rid of notions like belief for these neurological translations. Surely, a theory like Mind/Brain Identity Theory is more sensible?
 
nietzschedude
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 09:13 pm
@Bill Maxwell,
The difference is a matter of categorization of ideas.

Mind/body identity theory or type physicalism is a theory in the philosophy of mind. While eliminative materialism is a materialist position.

So in this sense your right that we only need, for theoretical purposes, the former. But for more political and i suppose revolutionary purposes the latter is in place.

An eliminative materialist also is more stringent on their "facts" since they wouldn't claim to be backed by a theory but a system of scientific truths that needs to be implemented in society, with a simultaneous revamping of the way people think.

Consider that when the Galileo wanted to refute the Geocentric model it wasn't just a theoretical proposition, it meant a change in the way people thought about the universe on a grand scale. It had huge political implications, it meant the complete, worldwide elimination of the way people thought about themselves. This political stand or position is what EM is trying to achieve.
 
Bill Maxwell
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 09:33 pm
@nietzschedude,
nietzschedude;163207 wrote:
The difference is a matter of categorization of ideas.

Mind/body identity theory or type physicalism is a theory in the philosophy of mind. While eliminative materialism is a materialist position.

So in this sense your right that we only need, for theoretical purposes, the former. But for more political and i suppose revolutionary purposes the latter is in place.

An eliminative materialist also is more stringent on their "facts" since they wouldn't claim to be backed by a theory but a system of scientific truths that needs to be implemented in society, with a simultaneous revamping of the way people think.

Consider that when the Galileo wanted to refute the Geocentric model it wasn't just a theoretical proposition, it meant a change in the way people thought about the universe on a grand scale. It had huge political implications, it meant the complete, worldwide elimination of the way people thought about themselves. This political stand or position is what EM is trying to achieve.


In what way will EM enable us to think differently? Folk psychology seems perfectly adequate as a 'short-hand' way of talking about brain processes and neurological 'language'.
 
nietzschedude
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 10:04 pm
@Bill Maxwell,
Well see thats EM's problem with universal thought exactly, that EM's find that the majority of people in our world don't think of beliefs the way you and I do (as the same as--brain states). And when you do the research, I suppose, the majority of this world's people don't affirm mind/body indentity theory. They are instead stuck in the past and lagging behind empirical scientific knowledge and the proof that lags with it.

Keep in mind however, that EM was introduced in the 60s-70s.
 
Bill Maxwell
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 10:10 pm
@nietzschedude,
nietzschedude;163219 wrote:
Well see thats EM's problem with universal thought exactly, that EM's find that the majority of people in our world don't think of beliefs the way you and I do (as the same as--brain states). And when you do the research, I suppose, the majority of this world's people don't affirm mind/body indentity theory. They are instead stuck in the past and lagging behind empirical scientific knowledge and the proof that lags with it.

Keep in mind however, that EM was introduced in the 60s-70s.


I suppose you're referring to dualist theories of mind. Such as Descartes' view and that of most religions when you say 'stuck in the past'.

I agree that a more modern and scientific view of belief should be put forward. However, I must say, that EM's ideas are too radical. There's no good reason to side with EM that I've yet seen.

Btw, welcome to the forum =]
 
jgweed
 
Reply Wed 12 May, 2010 08:43 am
@nietzschedude,
You now live in a state that cannot make its mind up about time and a city where the downtown is comprised of very nice and new parking lots, and of course a new football stadium.
So a double welcome to Philforum!
Cheers,
John
 
 

 
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