'Help, I'm philosuffocating!' (read: 'Hi!')

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Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2009 05:32 pm
Good evening, afternoon or morning, whatever the case may be in your part of the world.

I'm an undergrad student majoring in Philosophy and English at Kiel University in Germany. That is to say, I've been working on my English program for two years already and recently switched my second major to Philosophy, so I'm still a tabula rasa in that department for the time being. But what I lack in experience I hope to make up for with my innate curiosity.

I enjoy classical music, dry red wine, and long walks on the beach...

Whoops, wrong site. :whistling:

My philosophical dispositions are still rather hazy and undefined because of my lack of knowledge on the subject, but in general I come from a background of skepticism and appreciation (ok, worship) of science. So far I'm unconvinced that Philosophy (or Science for that matter) are capable of making any meaningful metaphysical statements, but I'm willing to be proven wrong on that point. Ethics is both extremely interesting and at times (just about all of them) terribly complicated.

As this post shows, I've been known to ramble, so humor me for the time being, as I'm making an effort to reduce the sheer number of words with which I attempt to convey a message within the context of the discussion which we may or may not be having, depending on your possible future responses to this introductory message; also, I sometimes enjoy provoking people with run-on sentences. :poke-eye:

Another bad habit of mine is starting long posts in the middle of the night, only to abandon them 1/2 finished after falling asleep on the keyboard three times or so. With that in mind I'll post this now. Thanks for maybe having read this entire message. :flowers:
 
Leonard
 
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2009 06:24 pm
@TalkingBook,
Welcome to the forum, TalkingBook. You sound like an interesting character. Don't worry about rambling, the most important thing is getting your point across.
 
jgweed
 
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 07:20 am
@TalkingBook,
If different philosophies are an attempt to present different (and usually unique) pictures (or perspectives) of the world, and if they must employ common words to describe them, then it seems to follow that they must be expressed in a very complex manner to achieve any sort of precision, clarity, and distinctness about that vision.
Welcome to Philforum!
Regards,
John
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 07:36 am
@TalkingBook,
TalkingBook;102681 wrote:
Good evening, afternoon or morning, whatever the case may be in your part of the world.

I'm an undergrad student majoring in Philosophy and English at Kiel University in Germany. That is to say, I've been working on my English program for two years already and recently switched my second major to Philosophy, so I'm still a tabula rasa in that department for the time being. But what I lack in experience I hope to make up for with my innate curiosity.

I enjoy classical music, dry red wine, and long walks on the beach...

Whoops, wrong site. :whistling:

My philosophical dispositions are still rather hazy and undefined because of my lack of knowledge on the subject, but in general I come from a background of skepticism and appreciation (ok, worship) of science. So far I'm unconvinced that Philosophy (or Science for that matter) are capable of making any meaningful metaphysical statements, but I'm willing to be proven wrong on that point. Ethics is both extremely interesting and at times (just about all of them) terribly complicated.

As this post shows, I've been known to ramble, so humor me for the time being, as I'm making an effort to reduce the sheer number of words with which I attempt to convey a message within the context of the discussion which we may or may not be having, depending on your possible future responses to this introductory message; also, I sometimes enjoy provoking people with run-on sentences. :poke-eye:

Another bad habit of mine is starting long posts in the middle of the night, only to abandon them 1/2 finished after falling asleep on the keyboard three times or so. With that in mind I'll post this now. Thanks for maybe having read this entire message. :flowers:


The first question I would ask you is what do you think a metaphysical statement is, and what would be your criterion of meaningfulness. Have you any examples in mind? Here is a metaphysical statement I think is meaningful and true. What exists must have properties. What about that one? (In my opinion, there is sensible metaphysics and also, silly metaphysics).
 
TalkingBook
 
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 04:38 pm
@TalkingBook,
Quote:
The first question I would ask you is what do you think a metaphysical statement is, and what would be your criterion of meaningfulness. Have you any examples in mind? Here is a metaphysical statement I think is meaningful and true. What exists must have properties. What about that one? (In my opinion, there is sensible metaphysics and also, silly metaphysics).
Arrg. I was writing a better response to this earlier when the Uni computer I was on suddenly killed my connection and thus my post as well. Here's a much less inspired response:

You're right of course that I'm unable to define "metaphysical statement", or even "metaphysics" for that matter. It seems like nobody has been able to do this. After doing a bit of research, I've decided that "ontological" is probably more the term I was shooting for, though you'd be able to catch me with the same question again, as defining ontology is just as difficult it seems. However, according to the outline provided by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, it seems to better describe what I meant.

Of course you've also got me on "meaningful". To be honest I'm not sure how I would define it in this context, and would therefore leave it out for the time being. After these modifications my original thought ends up looking something like this:

"Neither Philosophy nor Science are capable of making ontological statements."

I'm not happy with this statement. Leaving out the "meaningful" changes the meaning (imagine!) to something I didn't intend, as ontological statements are made all the time, and are therefore capable of being made. I think what I may have meant with "meaningful" was actually that while it is possible to form ontological statements, it is impossible to test the truth of any such claim without making unfounded assumptions. It seems to me (and my wealth of inexperience) that any ontological statement ultimately makes such assumptions.

To come to your example,

"What exists must have properties."

(I assume from what I read from the Stanford that this is a valid ontological statement, let me know if you're of a different opinion.) This seems to me to be quite logical; but, it also seems to presuppose that the logic system upon which it is built is actually valid. That is, why can we assume that our idea of logic is actually always true? I realize that this is a rather radical position to take up, and personally I most emphatically DO believe that logic is 100% A-OK, but I don't see any way to really prove anything about it one way or the other.

Then again, if I think about the Cogito, it's rather obvious that there is something, whatever that is may mean. In which case your statement would seem to be inevitably correct, as for something to be extant it does seem to require some property. In other words, I'm getting lost and will give the mic back to you in hopes of some words of wisdom. :deep-thought:

An aside: Has anyone ever attempted to refute the Cogito?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 06:20 pm
@TalkingBook,
TalkingBook;102878 wrote:
An aside: Has anyone ever attempted to refute the Cogito?


Indeed they have, one Gilbert Ryle made a career out of it. See The Concept of Mind by him and Daniel Dennett, from which I believe comes the famous critical imagery of 'the ghost in the machine'.

Incidentally, for what it is worth, my own (modest) understanding of the vast topic of philosophy has always proceeded along historical lines. Perhaps because I started with Russell's History...but in any case, I found the historical method useful because it provides a way to sequence and order the materials, and, more importantly, because I eventually came around to a perspective of 'historical determinism'. This views 'the history of ideas' as a response to the historical and social circumstances in which they arise. It is one of the bases of the 'sociology of knowledge' which was largely created by one of my favourite thinkers, Peter Berger.

(Subsequently, I have learned of another History of Wst. Phil. which is, I think, considered to be better than Russell's, namely that of Copleson.)
 
manored
 
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 07:03 pm
@TalkingBook,
Hello and welcome. I hope this forum can help you unload the excess of philosophy in your lungs! =)

TalkingBook;102681 wrote:
So far I'm unconvinced that Philosophy (or Science for that matter) are capable of making any meaningful metaphysical statements, but I'm willing to be proven wrong on that point. Ethics is both extremely interesting and at times (just about all of them) terribly complicated.

Like you already said yourself, it depends of what meaningful is, but, as a general rule, none of then are usefull in our daily life =)

So, if that is what you meant, then I would say you are correct.

Leonard;102685 wrote:
Welcome to the forum, TalkingBook. You sound like an interesting character. Don't worry about rambling, the most important thing is getting your point across.
Try to not ramble anyway =)
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 01:11 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;102901 wrote:
Indeed they have, one Gilbert Ryle made a career out of it. See The Concept of Mind by him and Daniel Dennett, from which I believe comes the famous critical imagery of 'the ghost in the machine'.

Incidentally, for what it is worth, my own (modest) understanding of the vast topic of philosophy has always proceeded along historical lines. Perhaps because I started with Russell's History...but in any case, I found the historical method useful because it provides a way to sequence and order the materials, and, more importantly, because I eventually came around to a perspective of 'historical determinism'. This views 'the history of ideas' as a response to the historical and social circumstances in which they arise. It is one of the bases of the 'sociology of knowledge' which was largely created by one of my favourite thinkers, Peter Berger.

(Subsequently, I have learned of another History of Wst. Phil. which is, I think, considered to be better than Russell's, namely that of Copleson.)


Ryle certainty attacked Cartesian dualism, but I don't recall his specifically attacking the Cogito which was Descartes' argument for his own existence. It was Ryle who invented the term, "The Ghost in the Machine", not Dennett. I think you mean, Frederick Copleston whose many-volumed history of Western Philosophy is much more comprehensive than is Russell's. A very different but very good book is, An Introduction to the History of Western Philosophy is by Anthony Flew.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 01:14 am
@TalkingBook,
Well I guess you're right, he didn't attack Cogito specifically, but practically everything else about Descartes. And yes, I meant Copleston's volumes, which I have (rather vainly) requested of Santa Claus. I will look out for the Anthony Flew book, I have some others by him.
 
TalkingBook
 
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 03:01 am
@TalkingBook,
Thanks for the replies. Yes, refutation of Cartesian dualism seems quite widespread, but as I'm unable to conceive of any argument against the Cogito itself I was curious if anyone had an idea about it.

I'm a fan of Russell and have been meaning to pick up his History..., but I'm afraid I just don't have the time right now. The reviews on Amazon are interestingly polarized regarding the book, with many people suggesting that he writes with a rather heavy bias (i.e. stressing the importance of those philosophers whose ideas are in greatest alignment with his own). Any comments on this thought?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 04:43 am
@TalkingBook,
One idea of the weakness of the Cogito is that it assumes a great deal about what 'I' am. 'I' think, therefore 'I' am - but what am 'I'? If it was expressed as 'thinking, therefore being', it might be closer to the real fundamentals. But it is possible, given that 'I' exist, that even this body which 'I' appear to be, might be part of what Descartes' hypothetically omnipresent demon might create as part of a persuasive illusion. It is instructive to compare the Cartesian analysis with the (Indian) Advaita analysis, which pursues a similar line of enquiry to a completely different conclusion. (See 'Teachings of Ramana Maharishi'). The Buddhist approach is also quite different in that it deconstructs the sense of 'I' by way of a kind of phenomenological analysis (called the 'abhidhamma').

As regards Russell's book, of course he has his biases, but of all the succinct histories it remains one of the best (another being Will Durant's The Story of Philosophy).
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 07:16 am
@TalkingBook,
TalkingBook;102967 wrote:
Thanks for the replies. Yes, refutation of Cartesian dualism seems quite widespread, but as I'm unable to conceive of any argument against the Cogito itself I was curious if anyone had an idea about it.

I'm a fan of Russell and have been meaning to pick up his History..., but I'm afraid I just don't have the time right now. The reviews on Amazon are interestingly polarized regarding the book, with many people suggesting that he writes with a rather heavy bias (i.e. stressing the importance of those philosophers whose ideas are in greatest alignment with his own). Any comments on this thought?


There have been a number of criticisms of the Cogito. Russell's in one of the best known of them. (From SEP)

"Among the critics, Bertrand Russell objects that "the word 'I' is really illegitimate"; that Descartes should have, instead, stated "his ultimate premiss in the form 'there are thoughts'." Russell adds that "the word 'I' is grammatically convenient, but does not describe a datum." (1945, 567) Accordingly, "there is pain" and "I am in pain" have different contents, and Descartes is entitled only to the former."

See also, Cogito ergo sum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a longer discussion of the the Cogito and criticisms of it.

By the way, there is a considerable difference between the terms, "denial" or, "repudiation", on the one hand, and "refutation" on the other hand. To refute is to prove error. Unless you think that a criticism has proved that the Cogito is wrong, you should not use the word, "refute" for it.
 
TalkingBook
 
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 09:50 am
@kennethamy,
Quote:
By the way, there is a considerable difference between the terms, "denial" or, "repudiation", on the one hand, and "refutation" on the other hand. To refute is to prove error. Unless you think that a criticism has proved that the Cogito is wrong, you should not use the word, "refute" for it.
Thanks for pointing this out. You're completely right, I haven't quite gotten out of the habit of using certain terms in a casual manner when exactitude is the name of the game. Practice makes perfect. :whistling:

Thanks to everyone who has offered me greetings and/or elucidations, I feel welcome and look forward to some great discussions. :a-ok:
 
jgweed
 
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 09:59 am
@TalkingBook,
Russell's biases makes his History fun reading , but they are (as I remember) always very obvious. His judgments and appreciations of the different philosophers are generally separate from his discussion of their ideas.
Copelston's History, an example of Jesuit scholarship at its very best, is perhaps less entertaining but certainly more thorough; he, too, separates his exposition of the texts from his Catholic opinions.
Russell's book can be read through fairly quickly; Copleston's multi-volume set, on the other hand, can be used as a reference when reading particular philosophers.
 
 

 
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