Interested in Philosophy, Being Proven Wrong, and Fun Debates

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Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 02:43 am
Hi, my name is Timothy Underwood, I just graduated from UC Berkeley with a bachelors degree in Applied Math and History. While thinking about what I want my future job to be like I realized that one of the things that I have enjoyed the most in my life is when I get involved in discussions with intelligent people who disagree with me. Also I realized that I seem not to do this often enough. So I'm hoping this forum will be a place where I can find those discussions.

I'm an atheist, but also very interested in hearing any discussions about the question that I haven't heard a half dozen times before (if only three or four times its still fun Smile )

Probably the two issues I find myself arguing about the most though are utilitarianism and free will. I am a determinist, and I think that some morality which acts very much like utilitarianism is optimal (although my morality is mixed up because I am also a non-objectivist regarding morality, and view utilitarianism primarily as a decision rule).

In both cases the validity of one side of the argument seems intuitively and almost indubitably obvious to me, yet there seem to be a large number of intelligent people who disagree with me. I'm hoping to encounter some of them on this forum, and that they will explain to me why I am wrong Smile.

I'm a bit more interested in this regarding utilitarianism, simply because as I understand it, nobody agrees with it, but I haven't yet seen the explanation of why nobody agrees with it.
 
RDanneskjld
 
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 06:22 am
@timunderwood9,
Welcome to the forum Tim! You seem to have some very interesting viewpoints and seem an intelligent guy, so Im sure you'll be fine here on the forums. In regards to Utilitarianism I have some sympathy with it's position, but I feel it's important to point out as Nietzsche did that happiness is not always what we strive for 'Man does not strive after happiness; only the Englishman does that.'. I wondering whether your familiar with modern day Utilitarian Peter Singer, if your not Im sure his book 'Pratical Ethics' would be of much interest to you!

Welcome and hope that you enjoy your stay!
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 06:43 am
@timunderwood9,
timunderwood9;92649 wrote:
Hi, my name is Timothy Underwood, I just graduated from UC Berkeley with a bachelors degree in Applied Math and History. While thinking about what I want my future job to be like I realized that one of the things that I have enjoyed the most in my life is when I get involved in discussions with intelligent people who disagree with me. Also I realized that I seem not to do this often enough. So I'm hoping this forum will be a place where I can find those discussions.

I'm an atheist, but also very interested in hearing any discussions about the question that I haven't heard a half dozen times before (if only three or four times its still fun Smile )

Probably the two issues I find myself arguing about the most though are utilitarianism and free will. I am a determinist, and I think that some morality which acts very much like utilitarianism is optimal (although my morality is mixed up because I am also a non-objectivist regarding morality, and view utilitarianism primarily as a decision rule).

In both cases the validity of one side of the argument seems intuitively and almost indubitably obvious to me, yet there seem to be a large number of intelligent people who disagree with me. I'm hoping to encounter some of them on this forum, and that they will explain to me why I am wrong Smile.

I'm a bit more interested in this regarding utilitarianism, simply because as I understand it, nobody agrees with it, but I haven't yet seen the explanation of why nobody agrees with it.


Well, utilitarianism has a theory about punishment (and reward). How do you think that theory jibes with your views about free will? I ask, since you mention that you are especially interested in both issues.
 
jgweed
 
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 07:14 am
@timunderwood9,
Welcome to Philforum!
Most of the discussions here are quite lively, and generally made without rancor and in a civil manner as befits the name of the forum. Everyone shrugs off Utilitarianism and finds all sorts of theoretical arguments to prove it wrong, but in practice everyone seems to follow it.
Regards,
John
 
timunderwood9
 
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 08:17 pm
@jgweed,
I think the 'thankyou' function in this forum looks rather cool.

I'm not sure how reward and punishment in the context of utilitarianism is relevant to determinism (note if I somehow made it unclear, I'm a determinist, and as an utilitarian reward and punishment are clearly justified to the extent that they are the best way to achieve their goals, and as a determinist I think they might change behavior).

I'm now 24, which is old enough to look back fondly with nostalgia to when I was 18 and 19 and enthusiastic about Nietzsche, and the concept of the ubermensch, and I still understand the logic of the argument. However in the introduction to A Theory of Justice (this introduction is the only Rawls I've read) Rawls argued that really Nietzsche and utilitarianism were fundamentally similar because they both involved optimizing something as the goal.

So perhaps a good way to think about utilitarianism is that it is fundamentally an optimization process, where you fiddle with the parameters and weightings, to decide just what is being optimized. And clearly classical hedonism doesn't provide a good 'thing to be optimized'.

This is why I find myself fascinated by what I understand to be Singer's satisfaction utilitarianism, because it provides something that works far more often as a usable 'thing to be optimized'.

Anyways I am familiar with Singer, although half from a couple of anthologized essays + the wikipedia page, and haven't read any of his books.
 
Mnemosyne phil
 
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:12 pm
@timunderwood9,
It is a pleasure to meet you and well wishes to you that you find everything you seek. Cheers!
 
timunderwood9
 
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:14 pm
@Mnemosyne phil,
Thankyou, and I like your signature
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:30 pm
@timunderwood9,
Welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy your stay!
 
Victor Eremita
 
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:36 pm
@timunderwood9,
Welcome to the forums Tim!
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 12:30 am
@timunderwood9,
Hey tim, you know you are not allowed on this forum? It's only for those without an education. I'm lookin' forward to some discussions with you. Enjoy the forums.
 
 

 
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