Bachelor's Degree

Skyla, I think you should just give up. No matter what you say or how you say you are continuously pissing off a whole lot of nurses, especially the ADN nurses.
Great for your hospital to no longer hire new grad ADN nurses. Their loss as these are some of the best nurses I have ever worked with.
Oh and I started my career in a MAGNET certified hospital - we were just RECERTIFIED last year - and the majority of our nurses are ADN so forget saying that BSN nurses will allow MAGNET certification.

Just give up you will not win or convince any one of us that we're wrong. And none of us are ashamed of our degrees and we are all about more education. But we think the ADN plays a bigger role in nursing education and tend to put out some pretty damn good nurses. Oh and I do believe the surgeon general had an ADN first. Before a BSN or before he became a doctor.
Oh, and maybe you didn't flat out say the words, but in your comments about unprepared or unqualified - you called every ADN nurse in this country stupid and I don't think any of us will forget or forgive you for that.

Just give up... we all disagree...find another topic to piss people off about

ljane05 wrote:

Skyla, I think you should just give up. No matter what you say or how you say you are continuously pissing off a whole lot of nurses, especially the ADN nurses.
Great for your hospital to no longer hire new grad ADN nurses. Their loss as these are some of the best nurses I have ever worked with.
Oh and I started my career in a MAGNET certified hospital - we were just RECERTIFIED last year - and the majority of our nurses are ADN so forget saying that BSN nurses will allow MAGNET certification.

Just give up you will not win or convince any one of us that we're wrong. And none of us are ashamed of our degrees and we are all about more education. But we think the ADN plays a bigger role in nursing education and tend to put out some pretty damn good nurses. Oh and I do believe the surgeon general had an ADN first. Before a BSN or before he became a doctor.
Oh, and maybe you didn't flat out say the words, but in your comments about unprepared or unqualified - you called every ADN nurse in this country stupid and I don't think any of us will forget or forgive you for that.

Just give up... we all disagree...find another topic to piss people off about

If we who advocate for a higher degree had "given up", you would still be considered hand maidens to physicians!
The purpose of a Forum is good debate. You do not get to talk vulgar and get your way. Again, it is only those who are very sensitive about their lack of education who are being childish here. No one needs to be forgotten or forgiven!!! My goodness, this is a Forum, not your life!!!
Good debate is lost on you as you react from emotion and ignorance rather than sound judgment!!! Chill.
I hope others who wish a good and fair discussion will take this up. And those, like yourself, can choose to ignore my posts rather than being so childish and making up your own sad perceptions. How insecure you are!!! If you want to talk vulgar, PLEASE don't respond to my posts.
I would never call another nurse stupid. ONLY YOU DID.

BSN
I just have to say something. First of all, I have an ADN. I do wish I had gone right for the BSN. I feel I am a good nurse. I work with a varied group of nurses, ADN and BSN and Masters...I think many of them are good nurses and many are not so good...but some critical thinking skills lacking..those nurses come from all of those educational background.

That being said......I was a 20 year old single mother of a 4 year old...and I needed to get into the work force soon. I was living on $15.00 a month after paying bill, etc. I'm not sure I could have continued that way for 2 more years. Please consider different situations. I have continued my education and will have my BSN in the near future. I think any and all education...reguardless of what kind..is good for everyone. I just don't feel it's essential to be being a good nurse.

Let's all try to be nice to our fellow nurses and maybe we'll have alittle more help throughout the day!!!!

bethany
oklahoma
surgical nurse
12 years in nursing

Re: BSN

okornurse wrote:

I just have to say something. First of all, I have an ADN. I do wish I had gone right for the BSN. I feel I am a good nurse. I work with a varied group of nurses, ADN and BSN and Masters...I think many of them are good nurses and many are not so good...but some critical thinking skills lacking..those nurses come from all of those educational background.

That being said......I was a 20 year old single mother of a 4 year old...and I needed to get into the work force soon. I was living on $15.00 a month after paying bill, etc. I'm not sure I could have continued that way for 2 more years. Please consider different situations. I have continued my education and will have my BSN in the near future. I think any and all education...reguardless of what kind..is good for everyone. I just don't feel it's essential to be being a good nurse.

Let's all try to be nice to our fellow nurses and maybe we'll have alittle more help throughout the day!!!!

bethany
oklahoma
surgical nurse
12 years in nursing

Bethany, you make some good points. And thank you for replying in a professional manner. I also agree with you that any education is good for anyone, but that must no longer be the case for RNs. So much makes up a good nurse, a great nurse. We do not advocate all nurses with ADNS run out and get a BSN immediately. What we do advocate is that entry level nurses must now have a BSN. This raises the bar, so to speak, and can only add to and help our mighty profession to grow in all aspects. No one but those who are offended by the silliest ideas that I or the ANA are attacking them because we advocate for this is saying an ADN nurse is not a good nurse. We believe with the higher acuity of many patients, there will soon be a need for all nurses to be Masters prepared nurses at the bedside. Each and every nurse will benefit from more education. Nurses have always fought higher education citing what several here have stated. We are our own worst enemies. Yet, when physicians told us that all we needed were a diploma and to do what the doctor ordered, nurses fought back. Many doctors still fight NPs having prescriptive authority.
More education does not mean we are not kind to one another. Some of the finest nurses I know are ADN nurses. Again, this is not the point. We will continue to raise the profession to the highest level we can and this has always been the cause since the days of Forence Nighingale!
We do not want a life-saving profession to be a patchwork of education that it is. We want a BSN as the foundation. Many professions require it. It is time for Nursing to require it. And this will happen. As I reminded someone earlier, there was a time when nurses didn't want to go near a college classroom. Would that have been okay with you today? No.

If you can save lives the way you've been taught i wouldn't care if i had an ADN or a BSN to be honest.

ADN vs BSN
The problem with BSN nursing programs today is they don't focus enough on clinical skills compared to an ADN program. I don not think that it's a bad thing to pursue a BSN, but the reality is you gain more clinical experience and hours in an ADN program.

Most BSN programs today put too much or more emphasis on management than they do on actual nursing care. Some may disagree, but I've seen enough BSN nurses, fresh out of school who hit the floor and their clinical skills are not strong. They teach more thoeory of nursing mangement and don't devote enough ovearll time to clinical hours. This usually poses a problem on the floor when you have nurses who are being managed by a fairly new BSN grad with little floor experience.

A supervisor will scrutinize a nurse for not completing task on time, etc without having any idea of the workload that nurse has and how challenging it is to complete so much in so little time. This is because if you never go through the daily grind of a nurse working the floor than it can be difficult to really understand how hard it is out there.

Again, I am not saying that a nurse with a BSN is a bad nurse, but what makes you a great nurse is partly based on how well you perform in the clinical setting, and you compare the actual hours a ADN student spends training on the floor compared to a BSN student, the ADN student has more hours in that department.

We do need more BSN nurses, that is for sure, but I think Nursing school adminstrators need to go back to the drawing board and modify their programs.

A nurse with a ADN who has strong clinical skills and eventually gets a BSN will do much better when it comes to management because you can learn how to incorporate what you learned on the floor in with management. And most of us know that what you learn in nursing school turns out to be totally different from what you actually experience once you enter the "real nursing world."

Chuck

I do not agree. The BSN program I was a part of as a student focused primarily on clinical skills. As an instructor in a BSN program here, we also focus on clinical skills! We require more clinical hours than any of the area ADN programs!
We never focus on "management". We focus on delegation and leadership as part of our studies. I am not sure where you live or attended school, but we do not have any of the "problems" you mentioned. Our nurse managers are not promoted to nurse managers without a more extensive criteria than just a certain degree. Management is based on education, experience, skills, and a diverse, overall ability to manage.

adn vs bsn
Obviously, skyla will never give up her BSN required thoughts - so be it.

However, Skyla has not given any "research" info to back up her stand. Just saying it doesn't make it so. I have been a nurse for 13 years in three different states - none of which required a BSN. Every state and employer encouraged BSN but they also encouraged MSN.

For our original question, getting your feet wet with your ADN is good advice for a simple fact - some new nurses never get off orientation - they just can not face the ultimate responsibility. Why pay for 4 yrs of education when you can not get the experience to use it another way.

Another angle - college is expensive. Most hospitals will pay the ongoing student 80% of the tution and cost to advance their degree after the first year of work - long enough to try it and settle into the responsibility.

My real statement is that no degree will teach anyone to take this kind of responsibility - it has to be there already!! As for the piece meal aspect of going for your BSN - thats what the national accreditation policies for nursing courses are written to do.

Good luck all (and stop eating the young on this site as well as at work)

ok what if you already have a BA in psyche?
OKay what if you already have BA in psych. Do you think it is better to build on that and go with BSN or would it be better to get a 2 year degree and have employer help with school.

I'm still deciding, but very excited to go into nursing I would like to be a Nurse Practioner someday.

Re: adn vs bsn
You do not need me to provide the research for you as it is common knowledge and easy to find! The valid studies were done by the ANA, by Clinical Nursing Research, and many other groups. If you have access to CINAHL, you can find most, if not, all the studies and the various research out there. I would never just "say it"....how silly for you to assume this without even bothering to do your own research. It isn't that difficult, just a GOOGLE away, but CINAHL is really the best source.

It is this evidence with research to support it is why the ANA now advocates entry level BSN. And this is also why Magnet Hospitals push for their ADN nurses to acquire thier BSN.

By piece-work, (not meal) I state the ongoing issues that the medical professions as well as many universities and nursing schools have with the various ways RNs achieve their education. We would like to see (and one day we will) all entry level RNs have BSNs. No more ADNs, no more LPNs. We are working to do away with all ADN programs and LPN programs. Some cities, and some states no longer have these lesser programs, choosing to provided BSN programs only. They see the future!!

mvanderlaan wrote:

Obviously, skyla will never give up her BSN required thoughts - so be it.

However, Skyla has not given any "research" info to back up her stand. Just saying it doesn't make it so. I have been a nurse for 13 years in three different states - none of which required a BSN. Every state and employer encouraged BSN but they also encouraged MSN.

For our original question, getting your feet wet with your ADN is good advice for a simple fact - some new nurses never get off orientation - they just can not face the ultimate responsibility. Why pay for 4 yrs of education when you can not get the experience to use it another way.

Another angle - college is expensive. Most hospitals will pay the ongoing student 80% of the tution and cost to advance their degree after the first year of work - long enough to try it and settle into the responsibility.

My real statement is that no degree will teach anyone to take this kind of responsibility - it has to be there already!! As for the piece meal aspect of going for your BSN - thats what the national accreditation policies for nursing courses are written to do.

Good luck all (and stop eating the young on this site as well as at work)

Re: ok what if you already have a BA in psyche?
Alright Julie!!

You will need a BSN to go for your MSN as an NP so I say, do it now! Many universities provide "Second Bachelors" programs where you can go right into a nursing program and achieve your BSN in a much shorter time!
Best of luck and go for it!!!
Skyla

Miss_Julie wrote:

OKay what if you already have BA in psych. Do you think it is better to build on that and go with BSN or would it be better to get a 2 year degree and have employer help with school.

I'm still deciding, but very excited to go into nursing I would like to be a Nurse Practioner someday.

i went to college to become an RN. I struggle with that organic - biological chemistry. will have to take it again and i can then qualify to be RN trained. I asked some RN's.....Do we use this chemistry as an RN. i was told that we dont use alot of it.
well, in process of becoming RN, I have obtained my State Tested Nurses Aid and now work as one in a local nursing home.
Everything I learned in the classroom was valuable as a reference point in my brain. But nothing compared to the learning i recieved doing it on REAL PEOPLE. The manakin helped but when the patient is living-breathing-responding.........well, let me tell you. that is a whole different set of learning.
now that i have done it for 6 months on REAL PEOPLE, the book work - class room information makes more sense. the information that i recieved in class seemed overwhelming. the first couple of months on my feet on a floor seemed overwhelming. my first experience cleaning someone after they passed seemed overwhelming. Embarrassed

i believe my dad told me growing up that EXPERIENCE IS THE BEST TEACHER.
the classroom is valuable for a purpose. But i would have to say that experience teaches you like the classroom can not.
i was told how to do Vitals, IN the classroom--ok? well, i told an RN one night when she need some Vitals done. Im not too good at doing that.
so, in her wisdom, she gave me the equipment and sent me down the hall. Do Vitals on EVERYONE !!
as i gained experience and confidence, i LOVE doing vitals now.
anytime you need Vitals done, let me do them. Laughing

the classroom is informative --- the experience glues it into your hands and feet and brain.
Thank you nurses for all you do. You are so important and you make a difference. No matter what level of education you have. if you give a listening ear to a hurting soul, if you offer yourself in ANY measure or in ANY form. you are helping someone who is not feeling their best, feel like there is hope to feel better. Making the journey that they are on--feel just a little bit easier to bear. when someone cares or listens to them makes a huge difference.
so i shout out a THANK YOU your way, each and everyone of you, for what you do----illregardless of your time in the classroom.
God bless
rascal

Bless you!!!
Bless you, rascal!!! Sweet words!! I hope you achieve all of your goals!!
Peace,
Skyla

thanks skyla. i enjoy being a voice of encouragement and uplifting to a group of such respectable - hard working individuals (nurses) doing a great service to those who are hurting or feeling down right alful.
although i may be trained as such an individual, i am humble enough to realize i may never be as great as some of you. but i am going to join your ranks and hope that whatever good i can do, i am going to do my best. ok.......
i do have a question however. someone sent me an email about earning a degree online to become an RN....or medical professional.
what do you think about that , dear nurses?
it is my first reaction that this would not be smart learning.
the idea is to get this information into the brain areas and hands on learning.......even if it is on manakins.
online seems too easy to cheet for a grade and cheet for a degree.
am i thinking correctly?
wow, i know how challenging it is to maintain an income and go to school at the same time. but the sacrifice should be well worth the effort.
thanks Guys for each day you clock in and do your best !!
it can get alfully stressful at times, cant it?
keep on keeping on. you do make a huge difference.
rascal

I'm not sure how some of the programs work for online RN degrees, but there was an online program in SD. The exams are all proctored to prevent cheating - someone is sitting there with you throughout the test to be sure. And as far as the hands on learning, they had to go in and do labs the same as all other nursing students - did some labs with them. They also had to do the same amount of clinicals that the other students did. So the only difference is that they weren't sitting in the classroom with us. A lot of these students lived in rural areas of the state that did not have an outreach university nearby that they go to to sit in on distance ed lectures and such. They also did this for LPNs who went for their associates and I am also working on my bachelor's online. I will have proctored nursing exams and will have to do clinical work also, although it is not hospital clinicals.

ADN or BSN
hello....do people know that adn and bsn students take the same board exams....i don't think a standard test could tell you how good of a nurse you are even if only have an associates degree....bsn is good to get, but i am tired of bsn people dogging adn people just because they have a bachelor's degree.....experience teaches you everything and not the books, they lay foundation, but experience will tell you how good of a nurse you will be not a degree in a piece of paper....i am proud to have only adn, in texas u don't get paid any higher than a bsn and like i said i passed my board exam once, while i know some bsn people who couldn't even pass it.....

This is a touchy subject for everyone partly because it touches our sense of self-worth.

ADN vs BSN: From what I have read in here, the arguement against boils down to "I'm an ADN, I'm a good nurse. Why do I need an BSN?" For once and for all, yes ADN's can make excellent nurses. Let's put that arguement to bed. The problem is that everyone is focusing in on themselves, but not the profession as a whole. What is good for nursing in the long term? We are the only medical profession that has 3 entry level educational degrees for the same license. IMHO that is a bad thing.

Skyla,
Just curious as to what type of nursing position you are in.

Skyla,
Sorry. My eyes crossed after reading so many posts. I finally found the post regarding your education, but I'm still interested in knowing how long you've done actual bedside nursing. I disagree with you on more than a few points and I would like to bring up one that hasn't been mentioned. You seem to think that the increasing number of BSNs is the reason physicians have greater respect for nurses. I disagree. I believe it is in a great part due to the women's movement, forcing them to take a harder look at who they work with and giving nurses the confidence to stand up for themselves, no matter what type of degree they have.

ADN vs Bachelor degree
Hi everyone,
Sorry to break iin. My name is Christina and I'm getting my second BSN degree next year and I will complete my master degree in two years' time. (It's an accelerated program, 2 degrees in 1 program).

Thanks for bringing this issue up, everyone has made some very interesting points. I personally believe that we should not judge a 'good' nurse solely based on a nurse's qualification. The quality of the nurse should be based on the nurse's attitude to the patients and their experiences in the nursing field. For example, a nurse who obtained a master degree, doesn't necessarily means that she's an expert nurse who is an expertise in critical thinking.

On the other hand, I agree with some of you that higher education provides us an opportunity to improve our leadership, management and critical thinking skills. For example, in our BSN program, we often have presentations and group work. This provides an opportunity to learn and become a good leader in the future. Furthermore, I believe that beside learning the core courses in school, extra-curriculum are also important in enhancing our personal development so we can be a better leader in the future. For example, in the BSN program, the students have an opportunity to attend to the nurses conferences and be a member in the student nurses association. My dad is currently studying a LPN course in a community college. He told me that the students don't have any chance to enroll in any extra curriculum activities that are associated with nursing.

To tell you the ugly truth, it is true that the higher education/qualifications we have, the more people will respect us. Think about all the physicians. People treat them like 'God' (Although I don't agree that we should treat physicians as 'God'). Whenever you go, people ALWAYS ask you about your qualification. Nowadays, many people have a bachelor degree in any disciplines. Think about in the next 10 or 20 years. Having a bachelor degree will be prevalent. Without it, we will be tremendously difficult to compete with others in any fields.

My bottom line is: Think about what types of nurse you want to be 10 years from now. Do you want to be a NP, nurse manager or a regular nurse working on the floor? If you want to become a NP/clinical specialist, it is necessary to have a Master degree at the minimum. However, if you decided to be a regular nurse, an ADN degree will do.

P.S. Please respect each other's values and beliefs. There're no right or wrong answers. We should at least communicate with each other at a professional manner!

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