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Reply Mon 3 Apr, 2006 05:20 pm
A little about me. I was a cog member from '73 to'78. It's been a long life. A lot of work went into getting free from not only the cult but from all the mess that was going on in me all my life. I was 17 when I joined.
I am 50 now and am a minister. Nothing is impossible with God and Jesus is Lord of lords. I started a ministry that is not affiliated with any church and it is all real simple. It started itself really, as I loved the broken around me. Especially the Satanic Ritual Abuse Survivors. That's where it all started, my becoming a minister. God has a plan for all of us and although Satan is the god of this world, the world is God's footstool and we are seated at the right hand of God with our Lord Jesus. We have authority and whatever the devil means for evil God uses for good.
I hope to engage in some level of communication and will attempt to do so. I do lots of crisis intervention work and that makes it hard to maintain communication flow. I'm glad you're here and I am praying for you.
Jack 2
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 04:58 pm
Re: general
grace wrote:
Nothing is impossible with God and Jesus is Lord of lords... ...Especially the Satanic Ritual Abuse Survivors.

As you read through newspaper articles or watch the news, there exist thousands of child abuse stories. If you were to actually consider who is committing these horrendous crimes you'd notice the majority aren't vague "Satanists," they aren't NAMBLA members, Mafia kingpins, or heroin addicts. They're Christian Clergy of all brand names.

That's right, if you were take a second away from your little fiction-novel and your blind faiths to consider the unavoidable facts, that while your efforts may be noble, "Satanic Ritual Abuse" is rarely and has hardly ever been an issue.

Ironically, Christian "leaders" talk with strong emotion about "saving the children," "world-wide Satanic conspiracies," and "the evils of homosexuality" while at the same time ignoring the fact that the Christian clergy is the single worst offending "profession" in America which sexually abuses children. The inescapable conclusion is that the Christian clergy screams from the pulpit in an attempt to draw attention away from their own horrid criminal activities and desires.

This is only the beginning, as you should also consider most convicted child abusers are Bible carrying, professed Christians. We should also consider parents who murder their own children by starving them to death or by allowing them to die from easily treatable diseases and other medical problems are doing so because their religious masters tell them to. As followers, the parents have no cognitive volition of their own when the health and safety of their children come second to obeying the dictates of their religious masters. What about those broken survivors?

Matthew 7: 4-5 -- "Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 06:26 pm
Yeah sure, Jack. You really believe mass media? Sounds like you know jack about mass media. Have you worked in the field? I have. Darn it, I thought you may have begun to think for yourself since leaving TF.

Am I correct to assume that the stats you are quoting are probably from predominanty so-called "Christian" countries that do not allow Bibles or prayer in school and are happy that your kids can grow up and fuck each others anal cannals and mutilate their bodies and minds and spirits?

Do you know what kind of effect the printing of the Bible in common languages had? You read, but can you decern the signs of the times? Are you looking for cause and effect relationships on humanity as a whole, or reading some journalist's article?

Don't get me wrong. I think organised religion is a load of crap. I don't think Grace is a part of that. So maybe you should go protest infront of your local fag church.

BTW, I have friend who have died after being involved in Satanism and all sorts of ocult stuff. I have seen some weird stuff. I have seen and heard demons talking through people. Their voices change completely. It's difficult to deny it. If you don't believe me, try hooking up with a Sataniic Church and do some rituals. Maybe you'll need Grace's help after that.

On a second thought, I would recommend something else:
"Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 10:26 pm
Jack, there are many facets of abuse, certainly Satanism isn't the only one. I for one was one of those "abused" kids. That has something to do with my joining the COG in the first place. I am not a person who claims to know everything or one who has all the answers. My work started because I was singing a song I wrote and a young woman heard me and asked to speak with me in private. I met with her and wanted to help her. One thing led to another and as the Lord led I followed to where I am today. God is so magnificent. There is so much to learn everyday.
I was supernaturally saved when contemplating suicide at 16. All salvation is supernatural but there was a lot going on and over many years that followed I received revelation of what God put into me that day. One of the things was the ability to recognize demons and do something about them. As a matter of fact, just within the last hour I was helping a young lady cough up some darkness. Anyway....I just do what is front of me and don't worry about what isn't.

BMW I believe that people are broken, not bad. The "true" Word of God tells us not to be ignorant of the enemies devices and I certainly am not.
If you'll put yourself on the line, right on the edge, because you love Jesus and want to die to self to shoulder another's burden, the Lord meets us there and works by the Holy Spirit through us. I appreciate your account of your experiences. It's a tough field to work in, but God's grace is sufficient.
Oh and about organized religion, well it is true that I obtained a license, so I can marry people and do funerals, but we as a body are so far off the beaten path that one would not consider us "organized religion". We have our own non profit status and are not part of anything else, no denominational anything. God started this ministry by having a slew of young people show up at my house and supernatural salvation, healing and deliverance started happening all over the place. These kids asked me to teach them and it went from there. It is still going and that is all I know. Doing my best to live the truth one day, one step at a time.
When I left the family I threw away my bible and got a new one and started reading all over agian. My salvation did not occur in the cult, I met them afterward. There is a link, but my salvation experience was intimately mine and the Lords and nothing could shake that, not even the horrors of what happened to us in the cult. However, I knew nothing of the bible and that is how I was snared. Enough for tonight. Thanks for reading.
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 12:35 am
I guess I don't like the way TF, being supposedly Christian, has not planted a seed of faith in many of their followers hearts. I was taught the Bible by my parents when I was young. I never really believed the GNs and could see right through Berg's ramblings as a kid. So I never really bought it. I am thankful for that. Because I haven't mixed TF with Christ or the Bible.

I appologize to you, Jack, if my comments were strong. I took offence. I should handle things better, like Grace did. I am no professional in that field. I meant the mass media field of business. That is what I have worked in, and that's why I enjoy the web.

One way I see it is: Christ's pupose was to set us free - free from the control of others who suppose they act on God's behalf - free to follow God and keep God's commandments because we love them, not because we are scared of breaking them.
Jack 2
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 06:26 pm
Now in a different mindset I realize and acknowledge that what I posted was a rant but I stand firmly by every word. I just get annoyed by people who joined TF/COG then left and now act as if they are enlightened. I feel you do not deserve that right. Not that I think I do. I'm far from perfect. I too made a series stupid decisions when I was 16 and 17 but I never joined a cult.

BMW this is for you:

No, I do not (always) believe mass media but I do consider myself an expert in mass media. I happen to be a consultant in the advertising industry, I have worked in radio, TV and at a film production company and I will moving to full time film production again in June. Yes I was referring to predominantly Christian countries. Specifically The United States of America.

You kinda creeped me out on that anal canals and mutilation sh!t. But I'll have you know that I'm not reading "some journalist's article". I am writing about what I see. I'm writing about what I hear. In the newspapers and TVs, yes but also amongst the many people I talk to and who're real life stories I listen to.

I've had friends who have died after being involved in Christianity. I have hooked up with the with a Satanic Church and believe me their rituals are just about as weird and freaky as communion, prayer and prophecy are.
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 11:50 pm
Jack, TF so called prophecy is more in line with automatic writing and is not really a Christian doctrine. Why is prayer freaky? It's as freaky as a mantra or a song. Communion is kinda creepy.

Sorry, Jack, I was strong about those things. I have lived in many countries and in other non-judeochristian countries it's not the Christians doing sick things. It is the witchdoctors and animists. You wonder why Africa is so backward? You wonder why in the "west" people have high living standards? Sure it's going to the dogs. It's over the hill. But I can't deny that maybe it had something to do with Christ. I hear Church of Satan is almost similar to Chrisitanity except it uses the concept that we all fall to our dark side. They prey on that, rather than living the light. I believe in possitive things. It makes me happy.

You probably have lots of perspective in the US - maybe elsewhere too. I don't doubt those accounts of yours. Though, if you looked for it, you could probably find lots of possitive accounts involving Christianity too - not to mention Buddism which teaches pretty much the same thing. Christians in general are more selfrighteous I think. The so-called Christians who do those sick things are probably not living what Jesus taught. I will not and cannot defend them. "...I will profess unto them, I never knew thee. Depart from me ye that work iniquity." Christ will not defend them either.
Jack 2
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 06:47 pm
BMW, prayer as I understand it is offering worship and requesting favours from invisible and spiritual entities (ironically making Christians animists). Yeah, that's about as creepy as a mantra.

I believe your statements regarding Africa being "backward" and such are based entirely on the opinions to which you are entitled, but are far from evidence in this debate. Not all Africans are Satanists and religion doesn't have nearly as much to do with the current living standards of their nations as much as the global corruption in governments worldwide.

I do have a lot of perspective in the US but I've only lived here for 8 years. I have a majority of my life abroad. Sure, I've heard postive accounts involving Christianity but I have also heard similar testimonials in favour of the Church of Satan, Scientology and Bhagwan Rajneesh.
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 12:30 am
I don't know much about the US. I've only visited a few times.
Though I have lived in several African countries. They themselves will tell you that in the "bush" it's all about the witchdoctor and so on. What they teach is far from civil. I cannot help but see there must be some correllation between the vast amount of witchcraft practiced and state of living in those nations. Rape is a national pastime in many of those countries. It very common and almost acceptable for fathers to have sex with their pre-teen daughters. It's considered "normal" there. So of course you don't hear about abuse cases. Because they think it's alright - not to mention female circumcision, human sacrifice, and canablism.

I think Animism is more along the lines of spirits inhabiting objects. I think almost all religions have some form of prayer. "Halelujah" can be called a Jewish "mantra". One of the only things that makes Chrisitianity different from other religions, is the belief in Christ - Jesus, the person who died and came back to life, and the Christ in all of us.
Jack 2
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 05:29 pm
As you said you believe that Jesus is in all of you. Wouldn't that by your definition be animism? I don't give a funk about the idea of Jesus coming back to life. I personally have a soft spot for zombie stories.
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 09:35 am
As you said you believe that Jesus is in all of you.

Read what I said again. I didn't say Jesus. I said Christ. I think by definition Christ is not a person. That would be like saying mercy is a person. I was pointing out the difference between Christianity and other religions - not stating what I believe. Some other religions also believe in a "divine nature". Though it is not termed Christ. I don't think it matters what you call it. If you look, you will see the very similar conclusions elsewhere. "Noble" vs "Common" rign any bells? You will find other such terms used in other writings and so called "religions" that people have made out of them.
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 11:51 am
Christ is what Jesus is! Christ means "Annointed One". The greek word it comes from is "Kristos" and it means exactly the same as the Hebrew word "Moshiach" (Messiah in English).

To give Jesus His full title in hebrew is Yeshuah HaMoshiach.

The Bible teaches that Jesus IS the Christ so whenever the Bible speaks of Christ it referrs to Jesus of Nazareth.
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 06:39 pm
Ahh... So you are speaking from an exclusively Chrisitan background. Because Jews don't really take kindly to that phrase. Obviously you can learn whatever you like from the Bible. Berg came up with all sorts of ideas. You know what I mean? I don't go thinking "Christ" is exclusive to Chrisitians. It's only their word for it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist to others who have never heard of Jesus. Jesus himself said that he has other sheep "who are not of this fold." It's stupid to think that there is a monopoly on the truth.
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 11:29 pm
Don't bite my head off. Rolling Eyes I love hearing what is going on inside of you guys. We can always learn from each other if we will just be quick to hear and slow to speak. I would just like to interject that I have friends, people who I genuinely love and who love me, who are not Christian. I have a friend who is Jewish and we have a great time sharing with one another with neither of us feeling like we have to be right but instead look at the things that we have learned "experientially" and take it from there.
Also, scripture teaches us that since the days of Jesus Christ on earth there has been a false christianity. Satan is great at what he does, deceive. Tares among the wheat. That is precisely why our greatest responsibility is to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling".
I teach my crew that the Word of God is our personal mirror. We should look into it to see where we fall short and do our best to apply the Word to those areas of our life that need "redeeming". Not that we have to measure up to anyone else's anything. It's only about Jesus. I like to look, for instance at 1 Corinthians 13, the love chapter, and look to see how I did in a given day. I want to live those words and in so doing make the lives of those around me better. And so it goes with all the counsel of God.
"Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them". Jesus said all the law and the prophets were summed up in first loving God with all our heart, soul and mind and the second was to love our neighbor as ourself. Self hate becomes a problem there. In an effort to live that out, we have to learn to love ourselves. That can only be good if done in the right heart attitude. Hundreds of words could pour out of me on that alone. But they won't. For now I want to say that God's law is LOVE and the ultimate expression of that love was shown to us when He died on the cross for us. That tells me that I should, in the pursuit of following Christ, be willing to die to myself for others. If I successfully do that, I can remain in an attitude of forgiveness and not take offense ever. I teach to remain in a place called repentance, because we continue to screw up in our feeble attempts to learn to do it right, and remain in a place of forgiveness as our fellow human beings do the same.
One more thing. About the church of Satan.....there are different levels of involvement and like COG or The Family (whatever).....they did their seducing the same way. One would have to be "in there" on a pretty deep level before the secrets get revealed.
I have Native American friends as well. I go to some of their ceremonial dances and if there is a funeral and I attend, I respect their customs as I participate. Love gives......and does not insist on it's own way. I believe what I believe about salvation and all of what that is. But above all, I know my Lord wants me to love others. I don't lie to them. They know what I believe and we enjoy talking about the similarities and differences.
Long story short. Love conquers hate like light overcomes darkness.
Thanks for reading.
Reply Sun 9 Apr, 2006 06:07 am
Anonymous wrote:
Ahh... So you are speaking from an exclusively Chrisitan background. Because Jews don't really take kindly to that phrase. Obviously you can learn whatever you like from the Bible. Berg came up with all sorts of ideas. You know what I mean? I don't go thinking "Christ" is exclusive to Chrisitians. It's only their word for it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist to others who have never heard of Jesus. Jesus himself said that he has other sheep "who are not of this fold." It's stupid to think that there is a monopoly on the truth.

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure as to what you mean?

What phrase do Jews not take kindly to? And which Jews are you referring to?

"Christ" is Christian's word for what?

Yes Jesus did referr to other sheep and we can see that the other sheep are non-Jews. At the beginning of the ekklesia the followers of Jesus were Jews, as Jesus Himself was a Jew and the ekklesia was seen as a sect of Judaism. They were Known as "The Way".

It took these believing Jews a while to accept Gentiles into their number, however under the ministry of the Jew-Saul of Tarsus (Who was later known as Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles) Gentiles began to be accepted into their number; especially after Simon Peter had previously led Gentiles to belief in Jesus as Christ in the house of another Simon (a tanner) from Joppa (now called Jaffa).

Yes, Berg did twist the scriptures in order to justify his perversions, as many others do. But Berg also added "revelations" of his own which were seen as being of more importance than the Bible.
Reply Sun 9 Apr, 2006 02:28 pm
I agree with most things said, Jack, Evanman, and Guest. I guess what I am saying is along the lines of what guest said of how there are similarities in many religions and customs. Maybe I should give an example to explain what I was trying to relate.

First, suppose there is an afterlife. Now we have a person who has never heard of Jesus or any such thing as Christianity etc. This person lives according to some good customs laid down by acestors. This person dies. I don't believe he/she is doomed. Christ is not an idea or concept solely for people of certain religions and races. I don't believe in that. I think that it is possible for someone to be "saved", as Chrisitans call it, and not even have heard of Christianity. When they die, they will know. If you believed a lie so strongly (AKA dellusion), then when you die, you will continue to live the lie. Hence we have hollow "hells" and "heavens." This is just my opinion and the way it looks to me. I could be very wrong.
Reply Sun 9 Apr, 2006 11:49 pm
You are partially correct. The New Testament says something similar to what you are saying. It states that in cultures where noone has ever heard of Jesus Christ and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, yet they worship the one living God and do not worship nature or idols, then this will be sufficient to count them as being "righteous" before God. However, if they do worship nature and idols they will not be counted as being "righteous" in God's sight!
Ro 1:19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Many use this as an excuse not to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ saying that "all religions lead to God, therefore we shouldn't try to "convert" people." Yet It is perfectly clear from the New Testament that Jesus Christ is unique amongst all other teachers because He is quoted as declaring that He is the ONLY way to the Father.

Joh 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

In fact He goes even further by declaring that any one who teaches that there is another way is wrong:
Joh 10:1 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

This is not arrogance on His part because the only means by which we all may be declared "Righteous" by God was by an atonement for sin. And the only valid atonement is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ by crucifixion.

And what is required of us? Berg taught, "Pray and ask Jesus into your heart!" That by simply repeating a prayer we are "saved". He was wrong!

The message preached by Jesus Christ and the Apostles was "Repent, Believe the Gospel and be baptised"!
Mr 1:14 ¶ Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

[Bible in Basic English] (Acts 26:20)
But I went about, first to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, and through all the country of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, preaching a change of heart, so that they, being turned to God, might give, in their works, the fruits of a changed heart.

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