repent
repent

pray

Taking the words of Jesus Christ as recorded in the New testament at face value, it is impossible to accept that "anything goes" atitude.

It's not only CoG/Family that hold to this idea, Joseph Smith, when he promulgated his poligamy doctrine, At the start of the Mormon Church also practiced this idea. It is also prevalent in the Word of Faith/Prosperity Movement with such teachers as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, maurice Cerullo, Robert Tilton, John Avanzini, Marilyn Hickey, Creflo(adsa)Dollar(s), and their Ilk.

Just keep fighting against these temptations.

Read the Bible well. You'll see no such "I am above the law" doctrine in there. Really when you buckle down and learn to love the law, then you become free, then nothing offends you, and then you will see why the law is there. I am not talking about the Mosaic technical law. I am talking more about the 10 commandments. Jesus even told us to follow the law. Paul did too. Though, you can even understand why the Mosaic Law existed if you are honest with yourself.

Most of Paul's writings were about circumcision. He was saying that you don't need to be circumcised to be saved. I am not worried about being saved. Geee... "and thy house shall be saved." I'm talking about living a decent life the way Jesus showed us to and the way the Law showed us to as well. We don't have to obey and we can eat animals strangled without being drained of blood. Though we will probably get sick.

I think you get the point.

Entitlement
I may be special in God's eyes, but my election in Christ does not entitle me to anything. The best way I know to keep a proper perspective is to take the position that I am a servant and that whatever I do as a matter of service is nothing extraordinary, but just a case of doing what I'm supposed to do.

Luke 17: 7 "Will any one of you, who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and sit down at table'? 8 Will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink'? 9 Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? 10 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'"

It seems to me that Berg's doctrine of entitlement through election in Christ is that the servant is entitled to sit down at the table as though s/he is the Master. It may be that the Master calls me friend and invites me to join Him at the table, but this is not my expectation as a reward for service. Like everything else, friendship with God is a gift.

They also forget that if anyone follows Christ they can't expect any more in their life than He had, including persecutions.

Persecution for doing right--not prosecution for committing gross crimes!

Thanks for the perspective! Always so helpful to hear other's thoughts! Much of the baggage I thought I was able to throw off and discard relatively quickly but I find that the *eternal salvation* conviction that "all things are lawful" is MUCH harder to overcome. I'm afraid that I have sadly passed it on to my kids whose conduct is totally wordly while they firmly believe that they are Christians. (and as for me, as I grow older I become a little more hard-hearted every day!)

We have "Eternal security" true, but this security is in Christ not in some formular--"Pray, ask Jesus into your heart and--Hey Presto!--OInce saved always saved!"

Keep your mind closed
There is more to Bible than what was published - it was cannonized at some point in history by men who read the scrolls that became what we know as the authorized versions. Many other documents(gosples, epistals) were left out by design. Ultimately you may need just one verse to live your life as you want - work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Question: if there will be only 144 thousand wouldn't one's next saved soul bump you off that list?

The 144000 is simply a certain number of Jews that survive through to Christ's return--it is not the number of the "saved" people as the JW's wrongly state.

I'm sorry, does that mean that the rest of the statement is not "wrong"?

I was responding to the question, not the whole statement. As for the rest of the post:


The Hebrew cannon was already set before the New Testamnet era. The New Testament Cannon, obviously, was set after.

Yes there were a number of books, epistles, that were rejected, particularly those that came from a Gnostic view point, and a number that had dubious authorship (This includes the Apochrypha). One of the main pillars was the necessity of harmony with the other writings (including the Hebrew scriptures).

Recently the "Gospel of Judas Iscariot" has received much publicity. There are those that are upholding it as an "alternative" but equally valid record. Yes, it is mentioned by the early Church Fathers (in condemnation), however this "gospel" does not date from the same era as the other New Testament writings. According to the scolars, the "original" was written in Coptic. The other New Testament writings were all in Greek, and there is evidence to support that the earliest manuscripts discovered date to the "eyewitness period" (within the lifetime of the Apostles themselves).

I, personally, have no doubts as to the Old and New Testament canon.

Mystery to me...
why you don't just do away with religion itself will be an eternal mystery to us agnostics. I spend no time worrying whether something is "religiously correct" and instead just do what I believe to be "morally correct". I don't care if by religion, immoral behaviour is permissable, I wouldn't do it, because it goes against my morals. Can't help but think this is one of the stupidest questions ever.

Well If there is no God, then "Morals" are an illusion. If there is no eternal judge, then it doesn't really matter what anyone does or doesn't do.

To believe in "Morals and Ethics" and deny the existence of God is a total waste of time.

David Berg, then, was not perverse and evil.

Why bother with anything, we should simply eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!

What?? Since when are the two co-dependent?

Morals are guidelines to maintaining an environment suitable for the advancement of the species. I don't lie, steal, cheat, betray, kill or act out of spite because it would eventually cause harm to me, my family or those in my social circle.

God has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I live a moral life because of the immediate consequences, not because of possible judgment in the afterlife.

Your perspective on atheists is skewed and disturbing.

eternal life
"Well If there is no God, then "Morals" are an illusion."

Says who? Thousands of godless, faithless people have their own morals, and thus acceptable conduct and unacceptable conduct. The very fact that the basic morals of almost every religion are so similar, shows that humans have innate ideology, which are not dictated by faith. Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Bhuddists, Jews, all follow the basic principle, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. In a day and age of superstition, religion was an effective vehicle to further the cause of law and order. Now, we have proven that humankind is capable of applying law, without the threat of god, but through the threat of justice. Now, religion is holding back the progression of mankind. Genetic research, homosexual rights, foreign policy, all hampered by religion. Wars the world over, criminal activity by religious extremists the world over. Now, religion and faith have outlived their purpose, and have become a detriment to the advancement of human intelligence.


"If there is no eternal judge, then it doesn't really matter what anyone does or doesn't do."

If there was no god, would you go out and murder someone? Would you rape, steal, plunder? Is that what you want to do, but will not, because you fear the judgement of god? Surely there must be good in you, that comes of your own accord. You feel pity when one near you suffers. You feel joy, when those around you prosper. I know there is no god, no heaven, no judgement, no afterlife. And yet I do my best to live upright. Why is this? Because I am a man. I am a creature with the ability to think. I walk with dignity. I do nothing that I would be ashamed to one day tell my future children. I would wish that my future children would have the ability to discern what is right and what is wrong. I would wish that they would have no appetite for harmful and predatory actions. I would not wish that they crave evil, yet subdue themselves through fear. I am no man (or god's) slave, and neither will my children be so. We have the strength and wisdom to know what actions are beneficial to ourselves and humanity, and what actions are harmful.

"Why bother with anything, we should simply eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!"

Tomorrow we die, but not our children. We live in our legacy. All animals live with one purpose, to bear offspring, and raise them to fend for themselves. That is the ultimate existence of all animals. Assured, there is no afterlife, no heaven, no hell. But we will live in our children. Our DNA lives on. And the culture we leave behind, the moral education we leave with our offspring, these will live on. Culture and morals will adapt with time, as the prominent generation will deem fit. There may come a day when our current morals will be considered wrong. Our current moral wrongs considered right. That is not for us to decide. That is the responsibility of our future. The children. They will decide what is right or wrong for their time. We can only make our best effort to educate them to educate others. We can only attempt to leave a lasting impression, through our actions. We can only make our generation and morals so successful and productive that our children will feel it best to follow in our footsteps. And thus, we live forever. :wink:

Actually, first of all, AFAIK, agnostics don't believe that God doesn't exist. Agnostics believe... well let me quote it:
"An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist."

As Walker said, morals can be prooven useful without religion. I think I am quite focused on that point right now in my life simply because TF has given me sooooo much religion and no morals. So I want to understand morals sans religion. BTW, there are very logical reasons to follow a moral code. You could say that early Jews were kind of agnostics compared to the religious hupala we see these days. They weren't supposed to make idols, images, "G-d" didn't have a name - these sort of things.

You are your own judge, man. One may burn their own hell by their own guilt and torture themselves by their own actions. Can a murderer live with himself? I don't know. If God really is judge of mankind or Jesus really is a great being, then let them give us a score sheet of our lives when we die. In this life, we will gain blessings and cursings by our actions. I think the things that Jesus said to us, give us good clear sound advice. I find no reason to not to listen to the advice of wise men. It's a win win situation. I think by getting stuck on religious doctrine, one fails to see the underlying principals and "moral logic."

This expresses the kind of believer that i hope never loses their religion. If a "belief" of some sort is the only thing that prevents them from that "anything goes" attitude, then i would heartily encourage that one to keep the faith. Some may need to live life at the collar end of a leash.

I firmly believe that any moralistic view point that excludes God cannot be absolute. Such morals are transient.

Why is it wrong to steal?--because it hurts another?

What does it matter if it hurts someone else, or not?

If there is no day of reckoning, what does anything matter?

I am not questioning whether people who do not believe in God can live moral lives, my question is--what's the point?

That is because in your mind, God is an absolute. The fact is, until God's existence can be proven to such a degree that it becomes as widely accepted a knowledge as the knowledge that this planet is round, God--and any judgment he/she/it may mete out--is not an absolute and remains a concept; a belief. Only a fool would conclude otherwise.

Have you considered that selfless behavior is also demonstrated in nature by lifeforms that you believe do not contain a spirit and will therefore not be judged in the afterlife? What reasons do they have to behave in such a way? Hardly religious reasons, I'm sure.

Didn't I already answer that question in concise terms?

In case you missed it, I replied: "Morals are guidelines to maintaining an environment suitable for the advancement of the species."

Would you like me to break that sentence down for you?