can we forgive and forget

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evanman
 
Reply Sat 25 Nov, 2006 02:06 pm
m wrote:
Wow, I'd never forgive her for that. Mad
No one deserves forgiveness for abusing children.


If truth be known, who deserves forgiveness for anything?
 
m 2
 
Reply Sat 25 Nov, 2006 03:38 pm
evanman wrote:
m wrote:
Wow, I'd never forgive her for that. Mad
No one deserves forgiveness for abusing children.


If truth be known, who deserves forgiveness for anything?

Well, mistakes made from ignorance are permissible IMO. Abusing chiildren doesn't fit in that category.
 
Cookie 2
 
Reply Sat 25 Nov, 2006 04:22 pm
m wrote:
...mistakes made from ignorance are permissible IMO. Abusing chiildren doesn't fit in that category.


You're right there, but going back to what i think evenman was suggesting, evenman, i think no one DESERVES forgiveness, but there are different reasons we forgive. Many times in my own cases, I forgive for my own benifit.

I don't make any excuses for the people who hurt me (particularly in ways that could land them in Jail), and while i don't feel they "deserve" forgiveness per se (and i have found that forgiving is something you have to do each time you think of what was done to you) i believe for my own happiness and sanity's sake, i am left with no choice BUT to forgive more often than not. Do they feel hurt over what they put me thru and all the ways that has affected my outlook and what they stripped from me? I doubt it! But do I feel upset, hurt, and angry when I think about it? You betcha! And being the victim do i deserve to always be hurt? nope? but by not forgiving, i prolong my unhappiness, and that is why i forgive. Why should i have to suffer on and on when they should be the ones feeling the torture? And so i have to keep forgiving them for MY sake, not theirs (since i can't do anything to change the past or even discover their identity past their family names and faces, which i am sure have changed over the course of the years that have passed.

Man!

Laughing
 
JASONLANIK
 
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 10:27 pm
to cookie
Cookie wrote:
oh, there was another lady who's family name i do remember, since it was nothing sexual i'll list it here. it was abuse any way you look at it.

i was about 8 or 9. My parents were in another country for a month or so. while i was away, i was placed in the custody of a couple named Aaron and Lovelight (anyone know them?) Aaron was very nice to me, but i rarely saw him. Lovelight was also my teacher. Anway, they had one son, i don't remember his name (but i think it was nathan). but every nap time, he always tryed to fondle me (he was 13 or 14). he was so gross and always wet the bed that i couldn't bring myself to do anything but pretend i was alseep and move too much to allow him to do too much to me. finally i told him he was gross and to not touch me. But he kept persisting and went to his mom Lovelight about it. She beat me so badly for not wanting to have sex with her perverted son and every day until my parents came home scrubbed my toothbrush on a bar of soap and scrubbed my tounge with it until i puked. that lasted about two weeks. when my parents came home, she told them i'd been a little angel. she obviously didn't tell them anything, and somehow she had made me believe i deserved what she had done to me. so i never told my parents because i didn't want to embarass them or disapoint them that i hadn't been this perfect little girl that i really was.
Does anyone know her? That was only one of the beefs i have with her. i am CAPABLE of forgiving, but i think in my cases of abuse in TF when i was SO young, the ones that really freaked me out, i'd rather wait until i am apologised to. what do you think - not that i care really, but curious.

Absolutely!! I think your right .
I think mrs.lovelight was a profesional abuser in other words she knew how to abuse without even the worry of being found out. Her son was obviously a next generation abuser.
That is sad and I think there was more than just a few individuals that took the abuse to the extreem like that.
I say that because I along with my brother and sister went through very similar situations in various places with various individuals.
The problem for the children was the FI alowed any adult in any home the freedom to "discipline" any child even up to 10-11 years old. There were no guidelines for punishment. It was up to the abuser to decide how it would be rendered as well as how far it will go. The sky was the limit for alot of thoes sickos because nobody had any rules or boundaries set to go by.
I remember this one girl would crush up extreemly hot red peppers taken right from the pepper plant and would rub them all over her 4 year old sons face and in and around his eyes while the poor kid was choking and eyes watering and face red like a bad sunburn and swolen. This was her own son!!And she did it to him for talking back.
I remember taking a beating for allegedly loosing a basketball that showed up a week later. All I was told was that I had a 1 beating credit. No apology or remorse about it.
I would have to agree with you cookie and say let's wait untill we are opologized to. They should be confessing their sins anyway right?
 
Arssle
 
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 10:11 am
Re: forgive and forget
ruth wrote:
an atheist==an ignorant person. the fool hath said in his heart there is no god. I am not a bible scholar but this much I know. Oh i keep forgetting that you may not even believe what the bible says. maybe you can tell me what you believe in so I can get an idea what an atheist is.
The bible is a book written by MAN. Because of this, one can not claim that the bible is THE ONLY TRUTH since there are many other books (many of them older than the bible) that also contain a version of truth. What you interpret when you hear the word "God" is interpreted by many ways by non-christian people (Alah, Superior being, Jaweh etc.). Any person who considers another person "Ignorant" because of their beliefs is more ignorant than the people they label. I am agnostic. It means I believe there's the possibility of the existence of a higher being (Not necessarily YOUR god) just as there is the possibility of non-existence. I hope that next time you try to force your beliefs on people, you remember that you're just another human being who cannot claim to know all the truth. If you're just a troll that came in here for kicks please kill yoursef kthxbai. Neutral
 
Arssle
 
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 10:21 am
evanman wrote:
It is surprisingly easy to get hold of false documentation. Berg and Zerbe often travelled on false passports.

In parts of Europe it is relatively easy to cross borders with or without documentation.
Cool sig. A bit off the subject, I know, but it (the sig) has something to do with what I posted up there.
 
mrs reaper
 
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 11:04 am
ruth you really have no idea what you are talking about, i have never been abused as a child and even though i have witnessed it through a friend(something i still struggle to get over) i would NEVER dream of telling people who have been sexualy and mentaly abused to forgive and forget that is just WRONG as for having ago because people not believe in god get a life god is what you amke him because he is manmade if you have come here to annoy people i second what arssle said
 
Cookie 2
 
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 03:26 pm
also, in many cases it's the abuser saying, "forgive and forget" or our parents or people we knew who we once loved. in both cases its hurtful and wrong for numerous reasons.
 
mrj123
 
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2007 11:30 am
Re: can we forgive and forget
ruth wrote:
seems like a lot of ppl here harp on the past hurts and can t move on. gotta forgive and forget if you really say you wanna follow jesus


ruth,

I sincerely believe xfamily.org was raised up by God to expose the darkness in The Family International, "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them."(Ephesians 5:11). The truth is being exposed on this website, and God is using this website to shine the light on the truth. When involved in The Family all you get is deception and compartmentalization, as the inner circles decietfully hide their activities from the outer cores. Three of the founders own children have given heart aching testiomies of abuse, if one made a testimony that would be bad enough, but three!! Mene Berg, Deb Berg and Ricky have all been documented on television giving sincere heart aching testimonies of abuse, does this mean anything to you? Three of the founders own children!

Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.(2 Timothy 4:2)

The word is being preached on this website and forum. The Family International needs a stern rebuke and correction so they will turn from their wickedness, wickedness and decietful deeds need to be exposed and this website certainly does that. Jesus said, "know the truth and the truth shall set you free." This website certainly makes the truth known.

I pray the truth will be known to you ruth, so then you can live a life of truth instead of believing the lies your leaders are feeding you. God bless you and I sincerely hope you carefully read all the content of xfamily.org and know the truth, so the truth will set you free.
 
tyciol 2
 
Reply Sun 25 Nov, 2007 08:53 am
Thorwald wrote:
Ruth, don't you think it is a bit insensitive to tell us former second-generation members (ie, the ones who were born-and-raised into this group and never chose to be Christians) to "forgive and forget" when we are trying to seek justice for the abuse we suffered?
Her first comment was insensitive and overgeneralizing, I agree with you. She should have more specifically addressed Christians. She clarified this in her response to you, so there's no need to attack her for it again. Her counterresponse was just fine, and sensitive. If you are not a Christian (or attempting to be) then her post is not addressing you at all. Seeking justice is certainly very old testament (eye for an eye) but conflicts with the New Testament principles of Jesus such as 'turn the other cheek' and 'he who casts the first stone' and so forth. It is a legitimate query to those members.

If you seek to inform people about the Family and dismantle their organization to protect others from being victimized, that is certainly within the realm of Christian things to do, but not to hate or gripe or be spiteful. If such emotions enter into you, why not purge them and follow the path of a constructive emotion such as sympathy for the people you believe are being abused?

Quote:
It is difficult to forgive and forget when the very people who abused you will not even acknowledge that they have done anything wrong to you. It is even more difficult when they go out of their way to call you a "liar" and denounce and "pray against" you. And then, to add insult to injury, we have people like you come along and tell us to just "move on" and "forgive and forget".
Something being difficult is not justification to avoid it. It is difficult to avoid sin, and also difficult to be Christlike. But these are things Christians desire. If they do not, they are not Christians.

Quote:
I am, however, not an atheist; I am an agnostic. For me, there is insufficient evidence to prove that there is a god and there is, likewise, insufficient evidence to prove that there is no god.
Being an atheist means you don't believe there is a god, it doesn't mean you believe with 100% certainty there can't be one, just that you don't think it likely enough as to be convincing. I am tired of these extremist assumptions about atheisms, they are insulting. Why not just accept both labels? They apply equally.

ruth wrote:
an atheist==an ignorant person.
I would agree, insomuch that all people have some things that they are ignorant about. If you mean ignorant to mean to be more ignorant about things in comparison to the norm or comparison to their opposites (theists) I would have to greatly disagree with you, and in fact, my beliefs are the reverse of such a statement.

ruth wrote:
the fool hath said in his heart there is no god.
Hm, I wonder who 'the' fool is. Certainly many fools out there have said there's no god, but plenty of fools have also said there is one. If you mean to say there is something foolish about saying there's no god, I would sort of agree in that (in line with Thor's agnosticism point) it is too absolute a point, and to make crude statements of fact in regards to supernatural issues is somewhat arrogant. That being said, most people don't truly mean it that way, but are rather stating their conclusion. Such as how I might say "there are no unicorns" or "there is no teacup circling Pluto". I don't really know, I certainly can't prove it, I'm just stating it that way because it's easier.

ruth wrote:
I am not a bible scholar but this much I know.
Oh, but how do you know you know? :p Because the bibles tells you so of course! I wonder, if you had been raised reading a bible I wrote, if you would also believe it?

ruth wrote:
Oh i keep forgetting that you may not even believe what the bible says. maybe you can tell me what you believe in so I can get an idea what an atheist is.
The only unifying thing about atheists is they have not come to the conclusion that there is a deity and that they acknowledge this. Besides that, beliefs vary. Hell, there are atheists who believe in evolution, to ones who think aliens made us, haha.

Indian Joe wrote:
However, innocent children who were born into the group, and never had a choice but to live a life of abuse certainly have no failures to blame anyone for. They didn't fail, they were failed by their parents, and the adults around them.
What about being failed by others means you are unable to fail at things yourself? What Ruth might be trying to get at here is a critically of an observed (or imagined) tendancy to blame all of life's problems as caused by abuse which might not have been. This is a tendency with trauma since it is difficult to pinpoint causation. In general, you try to imagine your life under different circumstances, how this would make you an entirely different person (essentially not you) and how that person would not have such problems. Honestly, while I haven't been abused, I still make such comparisons like "what if my parents had been smarter or richer" and still have regrets about how my life might have been better.

All this essentially amounts to self-loathing and is very useless and it is good to move past regret.

People who have not had failures or have not been blaming them on the Family are not the target of R's criticism, from what I can tell. I admit, it is a bit rude, because to attempt to discern causality is a natural reaction and not something to hate on others for doing. Generally you want to be more nurturing in your criticisms.

Jack wrote:
That's an extremely arrogant statement and a fine example of the elitism and hypocrisy inherent in your disturbed faith. I also doubt that you are/were not a member of The Family cult.
While I agree with your assessment of the intentions behind the statement (though I put a clever spin on it to make it an acceptable statement, haha) I can't agree with your doubt, it seems premature. Being critical of critics does not make you one of the ones they are critical of being defensive. This is a very common assumption and logical error many come to in regards to sensitive topics and arguments especially when people think they involve 'sides' and their agendas.

evanman wrote:
It is surprisingly easy to get hold of false documentation. Berg and Zerbe often travelled on false passports.

In parts of Europe it is relatively easy to cross borders with or without documentation.
This is a legitimate observation, however if this was fraudulent, it would certainly have to be a very complex charade, look at all the documents and people contributing to them and verifying the same information consistantly, after all. You'd have to wonder why people would go to all that trouble. It doesn't mean everything's true, but it certainly leads you to not totally disregard their claims as conjecture before giving it a look see if you care to do so.

m wrote:
Well, mistakes made from ignorance are permissible IMO. Abusing children doesn't fit in that category.
I think it can, it's possible to abuse children from ignorance, as in you don't intend to but end up doing it. Negligence, for example, would fit this. Er, unless the word 'abuse' has a conscious component to it, like it doesn't mean just hurt but to hurt meaningfully. In which case, many things are called abuse which I don't think people believe are wrong, even if only because they were indoctrinated to believe so.

Cookie wrote:
i think no one DESERVES forgiveness, but there are different reasons we forgive. Many times in my own cases, I forgive for my own benifit.
I agree with you, it's not just a matter of forgiveness, no one really 'deserves' anything. Deserve is technically just a concept we use to express how fairness might be held up. As in, people deserve compensation for labour, or they deserve justice for inconveniancing someone else, or they deserve a fair shot from the get go. I think it's very similar to the altruistically beginning tit for tat that won that Prisoner's Game computing contest.

Certainly you should only forgive for your own benefit, as a selfish individual. People who hold beliefs that they should consider others' welfare for their own or the public's wellbeing may disagree with us about that though. I can hold some benefit to public wellbeing since an improved society is of benefit to me.

James Massa wrote:
I sincerely believe xfamily.org was raised up by God to expose the darkness in The Family International, "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them."(Ephesians 5:11). The truth is being exposed on this website, and God is using this website to shine the light on the truth.
Hm, I don't think it's necessary to have god do it, as humans are capable of being active against things they dislike on their own. Though having an omnipotent omniscient immortal on your hands would be pretty helpful, though if so He's certainly being subtle in acting through you rather than simply smiting evil like he did in the OT eh?

Cookie wrote:
also, in many cases it's the abuser saying, "forgive and forget" or our parents or people we knew who we once loved. in both cases its hurtful and wrong for numerous reasons.
Hurtful sure, but that's irrelevant, being hurt isn't really a logical process after all. It is wrong though, and that's relevant. It's wrong to tell other people what to do. Whether someone forgives or tries to forget, that should be their own choice, people should not tell others how to feel or what to forget. This is presuming it is conveyed as a command statement which is how what you say comes off as. There's nothing wrong with saying "you might be better off forgetting" or "forgiving will help you get on with your life" of course though, that isn't really misleading and is true in some cases.

Personally, I disagree with both approaches, I don't think they're necessary to live a good life, and in either case they don't lead to a prime path of consciousness. I don't think we should try to forget anything. We should cling to all memories, they are precious and define existance for us, the good ones and the bad ones make us who we are. This is a reason why we shouldn't think so much about changing the past, we should accept who we are and if we envision a greater Us, pursue that from the present rather than thinking we can only do it by backtracking and redoing what was done differently or changing our fates.

As for forgiveness, like you said earlier, only if it is of benefit to you. Thing is, I don't think you really need to go so far as forgive. Rather, simply not dwell on it or let it control you. I guess to stop hating might be seen as the same as forgiveness, but I don't really think it is. I think it's more like recognizing that hatred isn't really inherantly useful, and if you're not harnessing the hatred for something useful, you may as well be done with it so you can think clearer and be in a better overall mood.

It's like, forgiveness is stopping hating someone for their benefit, whereas letting go is for yours. There's no 'giving' going on. With forgiveness, you let it go even though you still want to, with letting go, you just stop caring about hating because you get disgusted with that part of yourself which is dominating your thinking.
 
 

 
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