Social reality is a cultural construction controlled by people with power. No one understands that principle of realpolitik better than Karl Rove & Dick Chaney.

Re: Blackelk
Blackelk, well spoken bro, for when you say ....

Second, you are probably correct about TFI's preference for First World leadership, regardless of the color of their skin. When I think about the history of the U.S. and its foreign policies as a colonial empire, I have a hard time segmenting out Europe, a major part of the First World. I wish that the U.S. would listen to its older, wiser cousins on the issue of its (nonexistant) energy policies and the pitfalls of militarism. But then, that would be like TFI listening to indigenous membership in developing countries about the pitfalls of such things as totalitarian, paternalistic control. Brazil rocks![/quote]

I would definitely agree with you as well. America only listens to itself and its manipulated media, and so preaches only to itself thast it is rightoeus when the rest of the world can see through its military violence for monetary gain. Its easy to see prophetically that it is America the Whore.

Not all Americans are whore mongers only those that worship pride and power and the supposed best who is actually the worst until an even worse power comes into being after America's Fall. Oh how the mighty are fallen applies to America as well as the family. For in truth the Family did have spiritual power at one point til the dementia of absolute power infected Mo and now Maria, for they also shall be no more.

This whether the financial courts take away their finances or whether divisions and apathy makes it fall apart out of atrition and atrophy.

SEE Press... FC illegalities in charity finding

Whoops rookie that I am here, I forgot to sign IN, for that was I, that posted the above posting.....

BlackElk - I was talking about my experience in TF. If you want to get political and preach your political sermons, leave me out of it. Thanks.

PS
Your original post about doing a project on Berg's anti-American letters and quotes I thought was a worthy project. Now it's degenerated into pet ideologies. The original thought seems to have been lost.

Black Elk, seeing that Achieck said you should return to your original posting on this thread, can I say you will have a tough time dictating to religious groups that they must believe that America is perfect and every law abiding citizen must send their sons to war in Iraq and elsewhere for their materialistic glories back home.

Your proposed forcing of the Family to admit they disagree with American policies is anti-America if America actually stood for freedom and individual and group rights. It is terrorism to dictate to citizens that they must believe in what a few politicians dictate to them. Surely you know how many personal rights have been lost in the States all for the supposed sake of security by unknown foriegn groups.

You can;t take away religious freedoms otherwise the state becomes the church, just as the insane violent right wing Christian church has done.

So here's some reference material for ya... to which people are suppose to discern who this Babylon country is.... and it doesn't take much intelligence or discernment to figure out, so let people decide for themselves Blackelk... Achieck is allowed her and I have mine, so let's not dictate the interpretation by force, that's what the family did and does, let people decide for themselves... IMO

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.


Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.


Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.


Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.


Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,


Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.


Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:


Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,


Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.


Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.


Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,


Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!


Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,


Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city!


Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.


Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.


Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.


Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft [he be], shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;


Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth

To Fisherman & Achieck


I have never said anything of this sort. Please try to support your interpretations of what I write with quotations from my posts. If you do this, you'll find it nearly impossible to cite any statement from me that asserts "America is perfect" or that "every law abiding citizen must send their sons to war in Iraq and elsewhere for materialistic glories back home." If you look at the writings of the two individuals I mention as contemporary prophets (Jim Wallis & Daniel Berrigan), you will see that my personal ideology is pacifist. However, my personal ideology regarding war is irrelevant to a study of Berg's anti-Americanism.

I agree with Achieck, who is not a pacifist, that it is very difficult to address the topic of Berg's anti-Americanism without having the conversation reduced to a discussion of the Bush administration's foreign policy. (Thank you for stepping in, Achieck, with your comment that the discussion had gotten off topic. I respect your views more than you may ever truly appreciate.)

As I give more and more thought to the problem of getting off topic, I see that it is important to stick with an analysis of the things Berg wrote in the 1970s and 1980s. The parallel between Berg's condemnation of the U.S. as the Great Whore and the Islamic jihadist condemnation of the U.S. as The Great Satan is particularly striking when put in the context of Berg's admiration for Muamar Gaddafi. This is not to say the Islamicist's criticism of U.S. foreign policy is without any merit whatsoever, only that it is one-sided.

If one were to stack up the evidence to make a case against the U.S., a fair court of judgement might conclude the U.S. is one whore among many whores and one devil among numerous devils in a wicked world. From an intellectual standpoint, I take issue with Berg's demonization of this country as the ultimate empire of evil, second only to the anti-Christ. From a socio-moral standpoint, how is the demonization of an entire nation different than the demonization of former TFI members?



I have no desire to force TFI to admit anything. I hope that one day they will take responsibility for the crimes their leadership and certain individuals in the group committed against children. I might respect what TFI has to say about the sins of America if their hands were not stained with the blood of innocents and their leaders were not cruel & corrupt autocrats. That is why I respect what Jim Wallis has to say about national repentance, because his testimony is that of a morally upright man. If you're not familiar with Wallis, he's the guy whose message to America in the last election cycle was, "God is not a Republican or a Democrat."



Just so there's no misunderstanding, Fisherman, I agree with Achieck that the United States is NOT the Babylon of Revelation, but for a very different reason. Given what I've read from Achieck on this subject, I've concluded that she rejects the teaching because she is fundamentally a patriot. Although I also love my country, my reasoning is based on a contextualist reading of scripture. The contemporary prophet Daniel Berrigan references the United States as being very much LIKE Babylon, and that's as far as I'll go with interpreting the Book of Revelations as though it had no literary, historical, or cultural context outside 21st century western industrialized society. I would also assert that for every prophetic vision of America as Babylon the Whore, there is an immigrant citizen who envisions this country as a shining city on a hill, very much like the New Jerusalem of the pilgrim ancestors. Whose vision is "true"?--perhaps both are. That paradox is the mystery of God's presence in the world, imo.

It was not my original intention to debate the merits of Revelations and the Jeremiah message as doctrine, and I apologize for getting off track in my initial response to you. My idea for an article on Berg's anti-Americanism is that people should understand what it is that Berg & Zerb actually teach regarding the United States. Considering how TFI tries to pass themselves off as conservative, evangelical Christians providing faith-based social services like the civic-minded, loyal, taxpaying citizens they AREN'T, it is important that the people most vulnerable to this duplicity understand TFI's basic doctrinal assumptions about the place & role of the U.S. in sacred history.

Re: Anti-American Family Lit
BE, do read between the lines of your original posting and notice, that it obviously seems you want to make the family seem anti-American, even though you are a protester of American policy as well. You disagree with TF but want the right to protest as well against American actions. You may not do it on religious grounds like the F, but nevertheless you seem consistently against the insanities of what America is doing. And yet if you want to gather evidence against them for their religious protest, wouldn;t you be hurting your own cause.




And you should hardly ever quote anything from Sam A, as he is hardly a worthy source because he hunts worldwide to stop Family good works or ex Family members good charity works on any excuse he can dig up. So again can I suggest you ommit his name due to his very extreme example of persecution against the poor even if they have at present no connections to the Family.

It seems very close to a witch hunt that has no basis just because a person or a group is against American policy. You can not dictate that the church become the state and that all Christians have to NOT believe that America is the Whore. For when you do that, you take away free CHOICE and that was suppose to be the fundamental of freedom and Americanism. Mind you that is and was a lie, and so you are back to the problem of America, it is a sham and a front for what's really going on. Surely you can understand this and surely you know your motivation for gathering all Anti-America words from Christians and from MO.

There are many of us who do not believe that a corrupt tree CANNOT bare good fruit!

Let me guess - Fisherman must be Jay, right? You have found a place that will let you post - lucky you. I wonder how long it will last. Please do not address me because I have absolutely zero respect for you.

Black Elk - you have pegged me as patriotic, it is partially true and that would be depending on your interpretation of what entails being patriotic. This would be a discussion sometime down the road. There are a lot more to my views then just that - thought you should know.

In any event. I think the topic you first proposed to be very interesting. I also think that if this article could get done very explicitly, it might be quite interesting to the authorities. I thought of this because I happened to overhear on the news about how the NAACP was being investigated as a charity group because of their political statements and involvements. So it seems that one cannot claim charity status and be a political group as well. I wonder if we could show the IRS all the political statements coming from TFI, via FCF, might give them a case to actually investigate them as a bonafide charity.

Here's something on Berg's anti-Jewish bent
I copied this a long time ago at NDN. I thought whoever posted it was spot on and had some insight into what was going on in Berg's head. We all know that Berg was pathetically arrogant and really deluded himself into thinking the world should worship him. So this reader's post makes a lot of sense. I think the last statement about how Berg's dream was shattered when the Israelis didn't bow down and worship him like he thought they would set him off and he saw them as demons and then decided to throw his ball into the court of the likes of Ghadafi instead. Interesting:

NewDayNews Crossfire
Re: are calling Berg an ass?
Posted By: reader
Date: Sunday, 24 March 2002, at 10:33 p.m.
In Response To: are calling Berg an ass? (lydia)
Ha! that's one way of looking at it!
I'm angry and often wonder why he didn't truly educate us. I mean, I thought
he loved us.
The French and British divided Palestine (which was part of the Ottomine
Empire) between them right after WWI.
Syches Picot Agreement - 1916. Arabs to get a state, but Brit's rule Palestine
as a colony instead. Arabs really pissed.
Balfour Declaration - 1917. Brit's in favor of establishing Palestine as a
homeland for Jews. Jews view this as a formative national document and
immigration speeds up.
1935 Nuremberg laws safeguarding German "blood and honor" strip Jews of human
rights, lead to deportations and the Holocaust. 6,000,000 Jews exterminated, a
Jewish refugee crisis and the inability of impoverished Jews to return to
Germany after the war rallies world support for a Jewish state.
1947. Britain can't handle the mass emigration and the Jewish refugee crisis.
UN Resolution 181 resolves to separate Palestine into separate Arab and Jewish
states. Arabs reject the plan and violence erupts as Brit's withdraw from
their mandate to rule Palestine.
1948 Isreal immediately declares itself a state. 5 neighboring Arab states
delclare war. Isreal wins creating an Arab refugee crisis. Palestinians flee
to the Egyptian held Gaza Strip and the Jordanian held West Bank. Palestinian
refugees radicallized in the squallor of the refugee camps.
1964 - 68. Newly formed PLO vows to destroy the Jewish State and adopts a
charter to claim all the land once ruled by Britain.
1967. Isreal wins the 6 day war and takes the Gaza Strip from Egypt, the West
Bank from Jordan and the Golan Heights from Syria.
All this brings us up to the start of the Family. The "Entime Prophet" taught
us nothing about any of this. Oh, but he did guess at prophecying how Isreal
would be invaded. Somehow or other, Russia isn't even a player anymore. God
I'm angry with that man.
Above info from Newsweek. There's more bringing us up to today. Check it out.
> I never grew up beleiving anything about the
> Jews. Berg incited hate towards Zionist, I
> don't call that helpful. Just because they
> didn't bow down and worship him when he got
> there.(he had a nervous breakdown, all his
> dreams gone down the tubes.)

Fisherman, you're free to read between the lines of my posts all you want, but please check out how well your assertions and conclusions are supported by the evidence you actually bother to cite. I NEVER said I wanted to use something Sam A had written--I asked whether we could obtain an original TFI source document from him, not knowing at the time I wrote this that Xfamily has an extensive compilation of source documents.

I have no problem with TFI or any other group protesting U.S. policies. I have been known to participate in political protests myself, and each time I did this, I risked the possibility of getting arrested should the demonstration get out of hand. I also have paid a small price for having my name & face publically identified with an unpopular cause. It is on this basis that I object to TF's cowardly refusal to follow the principles of prophetic protest & nonviolent civil disobedience. People like Daniel Berrigan have spent time in prison for their protests against US policies. If asked to stand up in public and speak plainly on their political beliefs, TFI will either obfuscate, purge the publications, or run and hide.

It is dishonest for TFI front groups to pass themselves off as nothing more than a faith-based social welfare organization while teaching their children and anyone else who will listen that the God has forsaken the United States and is on the side of her enemies. If TFI wants to teach and believe this, fine--I have no desire to prevent them or any faith-based group from holding such beliefs. By making TFI's teachings on this matter available to the general public, Xfamily simply abides by the social contract under which prophetic protest & civil disobedience take place: Take a stand & be prepared to pay the price.

TFI needs to own who they are, what they believe & teach, and deal with the consequences. Thanks to the Internet, the days of covering up and getting away with pretending to be something they aren't are over.

Regarding my statement that TFI believes God has forsaken the United States and is on the side of her enemies, here is a statement from Berg's "Mene, Mene, Tekel Upharsin":



Some Christians will be offended by this statement because they don't believe God takes sides. These people tend to support prophetic protests against U.S. policies. It's important for these people to understand that TFI is a group that promotes belief in a vengeful tribal diety. Other Christians will be offended by Berg's statement because they believe God blesses nations and that He protects this country for the sake of the righteous, despite the wickedness of the ungodly.

Neither group is interested in making TFI change its beliefs. They are simply entitled to accurate information on which to base their decisions about financial and social support.

Black Elk

If allowed to differ with

Achiek,

Mo actually was a good teacher in some areas, and some of his earlier writings were consistent with good Biblical teaching and even later with good current events interpretations, but you have to determine what is true in your own mind. Mind you, the Lord knows and it will be open as to what really happenned in the past.

SEE http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ as a different perspective example

When in TF before, we could literally talk and discuss world events and much of history and science with anyone and be rather knowledgeable. I saw sisters do this and brothers irregardless of their educational background. I had a degree before joining, but was originally impressed with what Mo was teaching even in science. But Mo got shallower and shallower, and more into himself and more convoluted and inconsuistent as time went on, so we didn;t have a clue what was going on in the present past or the future. And now Maria educated disciples are dumber than dirt. All they are pumped with is the insanity that they are the best and Maria is the prophetess of God who can;t hear from the Lord and is just waiting..

Being pro or anti American is the right of every individual.

I, personally, see Bush as a fascist who entered power by deception and a virtual coup.

He claims to worship Christ yet every year attends Molech worship at the Bohemian Grove!

I believe that the US will be judged accordingly--NOT because Berg said so--but because the Bible says so.

Jeremiah named the sins of ancient Israel & its leaders, and he prophesied that Israel would be judged as a nation. Did that make him anti-Israeli?

I believe Jeremiah truly loved the nation of Israel. That is why he stood by her when the judgement rod fell. I don't believe David Berg or Karen Zerby love the United States. There's an important democratic concept called "loyal opposition" that does not appear to be operant where TFI is concerned. I am not finished studying the MLs and the World Currents series on the subject of Islamic extremism, but it would appear that Berg & Zerb put considerable energy into condoning and blessing the aspirations & activities of radical Islamic extremists.

The jihadists have done their share of damage in GB. Maybe British civilians deserved such a judgement because their government participated in the invasion of Iraq? "America deserved it" is essentially the position Zerb took with regard to the destruction of the Twin Towers. I accept the contention that U.S. policies in the Mid-east are a major source of conflict and that we should take a serious look at our energy policies. I don't accept the jihadists' actions against U.S. civilians as justifiable or an expression of God's will.

Your opinions regarding the Bush administration do not necessarily mean you are anti-American. If, however, you hold the view that there is absolutely nothing redeeming about this country and that it should be demonized and rejected as an evil, God-forsaken place, then I would say you're anti-American.

It is absolutely your right to hold anti-American views. TFI also has the right to say anything they want about the U.S., its leadership, and our policies. When TFI members go begging in this country for public support, ordinary tax-paying citizens (which include the "G-damned AC Jews") also have the right to know about political positions TFI leadership have taken for the better part of 30 years.

Black Elk can I respond to you in ...(...)

*********************************

Jeremiah named the sins of ancient Israel & its leaders, and he prophesied that Israel would be judged as a nation. Did that make him anti-Israeli? (No, he was pro-people but firstly pro-God, and we always have to separate a land from the name of a country. And jeremiah innthis sense was never pro-Israel the land, or the government, because the only government the Lord recognizes is indivudlas that reckonize him. Its all by individual choice, which is exactly what Jeremiah told all the Israeli's to do, Individually choose to flee and not stay. He didn;t tell them to stay and fight the babylonians, and so Jeremiah would be today called a Communist because he told godly people that the Lord was going to take over the land of Israel and the government of Israel, and they better get the heaven out of there before it turned into hell. And Jeremiah was right, even though accused of being a turn-coat Communist type.)

I believe Jeremiah truly loved the nation of Israel. ( ??????????? land, government, people...what are you defining as israel, as your sentence needs a whole lot of clarifying.) That is why he stood by her when the judgement rod fell. (no he didn;t he told people to run from the corrupt evil Israel and save themselves. Jeremiah didn;t stay and fight the Babylonians. They imprisoned him and the babyl0nians set him free. Jeremiah saved the Ark and the Tabernacle, the only things of value in the Temple, and the babylonians destroyed and ransacked everything else that didn;t matter. Black Elk are you sure you know your Bible history )

I don't believe David Berg or Karen Zerby love the United States. (Thank the Lord, they might have gotten one thing right, yet they loved Americans and Westernerns and definitely taught and preached that esterners are better than 3rd world people) There's an important democratic concept called "loyal opposition" that does not appear to be operant where TFI is concerned. (hey allow no opposition , Mo thought no one was equal to him, until he got so bad anyone could have been his superior because he lost all morality) I am not finished studying the MLs and the World Currents series on the subject of Islamic extremism, (surely you mean Ameerican extremism) but it would appear that Berg & Zerb put considerable energy into condoning and blessing the aspirations & activities of radical Islamic extremists. (Never read that, that's mainly a right wing Christian church theory that helps instills war mongering against Islamics. So I think you would be better looking at church bulletins rather than Mo letters for this one. Mo was against Communism and Capitalism and just wanted a place of refuge for his dictatorship, as he thought he did become God.)

The jihadists have done their share of damage in GB. Maybe British civilians deserved such a judgement because their government participated in the invasion of Iraq? "America deserved it" is essentially the position Zerb took with regard to the destruction of the Twin Towers. I accept the contention that U.S. policies in the Mid-east are a major source of conflict and that we should take a serious look at our energy policies. I don't accept the jihadists' actions against U.S. civilians as justifiable or an expression of God's will. (Which actions are you talking about. Occupation forces are fought by locals wanting their freedom back.... islamics havenl;t attacked any country for oil and power that I know of. Islamic extremism has been the excuse for going to war it is so convenient, that it seems it has helped or been ********* by the West themselves... No further comment, anyone with half a barin knows what is happenning)

Your opinions regarding the Bush administration do not necessarily mean you are anti-American. (Not anti -American people because now the majority of Americans have woken up and are anti_BUSH and anti-war) If, however, you hold the view that there is absolutely nothing redeeming about this country (That's extremism, but they are going to be destoryed compeltely that's prophecy and unchangeable sorry ) and that it should be demonized and rejected as an evil, God-forsaken place, then I would say you're anti-American. (Nah, just seeing the obvious and understanding why they are not in the End Time and are called the Whore. Not complicated rather simple)

It is absolutely your right to hold anti-American views. (Thanks that's why the majority of the world is anti-American policy and war and becoming anti-American to American citizens even if those citizens are against the policies of their government. ha that's why they cary around canadain flags) TFI also has the right to say anything they want about the U.S.,(Amen... and they better do it quietly as any open remarks can bring on persecution as potennial terrorists> better to say absolutely nothing... if you live in America and they do. So they are beoing wise in this case., as they aren;t prophets anymore at ALL, so let em be.) its leadership, and our policies. When TFI members go begging in this country for public support, (Do all charities beg.... or are you just saying this demeaning to TFI) ordinary tax-paying citizens -which include the "G-damned AC Jews"- (Ohhhhh that sounds extreme in what you are saying the opposites are thinking. for again onl;y the foolish deem all jews as responsible for Jewish government decisions, just as all canadainas are not evil because of Ottatwa's policies etc etc etc etc etc... whew, that atitude of the opposition BE is very very dangerous. Again I repeat not all Americans are evil just because of evil American policy in going to war. Are you evil BE ? No, so allow discernment among the opposition when talking about innocent Jewish people.) also have the right to know about political positions TFI leadership have taken for the better part of 30 years. (???) Got to fly

We better get back to the topic of this thread, besides I will be off permanently soon.

All the best in you ropposition to the War, but another wone will be starting soon... the America/Israeli war aginst Iran. surely you know the build up is on...and instruments in place..

Hang on another hurricane is coming