Get Email Updates • Email this Topic • Print this Page
They are truly of their father the devil!
Aha! No wonder I'm so confused. These "leaders" have sure misconstrued nearly the whole bible--for sure the OT. Here's an explanation from a follower of the Torah:
Acheick wrote:Aha! No wonder I'm so confused. These "leaders" have sure misconstrued nearly the whole bible--for sure the OT. Here's an explanation from a follower of the Torah:
Oh, I get it. It was 42 adult heathens, not 42 children. I guess that doesn't make it so brutal after all. I'll bet the 42 heathens where all asocial orphans who had absolutely no loved ones in their lives and had it coming anyway. It's comforting to know that God will allow 42 adults to suffer a horrifc death because they mock my religious beliefs.
Seriously though, I've met and had discussions with several Reformed and Orthodox Jews and I must say their reasoning seems to run similar to Christians in regards to the Torah.
They will go to great lengths to explain why certain miraculous events are not to be taken litterally, (such as the angels having intercourse with the daughters of men or the above example with Elisha), while at the same time insisting that other miraculous events happened exactly as described (God speaking to millions of people from a mountain, the parting of the Red Sea, etc.).
I guess it all comes down to believing the parts of the Bible that best benefit your chosen way of life and belief system. Berg supported his beliefs with the scriptures that benefitted him, and millions of Christians and Jews do the same to varying degrees.
I'd bet anything you could support almost any religion by using selected Bible scriptures and putting a spin on them.
Did you miss the part where Elisha got in trouble from God for doing that?
Acheick wrote:Did you miss the part where Elisha got in trouble from God for doing that?
Yes, but bears??? I mean, the guy also supposedly had the power to blind people or put a plague on them. Surely he could have thought of a less brutal punishment than bears.
It just sounds too much like a Brothers Grimm fairy tale.
Why are you all missing the point??? He abused his priviledges, it was not what he was supposed to do. Hello?
We have the ability to ram a person down with our cars, but we're not supposed to do that either.
Acheick wrote:Why are you all missing the point??? He abused his priviledges, it was not what he was supposed to do. Hello?
We have the ability to ram a person down with our cars, but we're not supposed to do that either.
His "privilege" was the ability to summon God to perform miracles for him. Elisha was human. He could not have told the bears to slaughter the people/children. He would have had to ask God to do so. Therefore, if this story is to be believed, God made the bears kill the people, not Elisha.
Had Elisha killed them with his bare hands, it would be a different matter, but according to the Bible, he performed a miracle. Sure, you might have the ability to ram someone down with your car, but I doubt you'd have the ability to command two wild and untrained bears to maul a crowd to death and leave you alone.
This whole thing is beginning to sound so fantastical, we might as well be arguing over why Cinderella's step-sisters thought it was a good idea to cut off their toes so they could fit into the ballroom slipper.
Remember Occam's Razor? Often the simplest answer is the correct one.
If this story is supposed to be symbolic and is not to be take literally, then my question is, where does one draw the line between what parts of the Bible are historical and what parts are metaphoric or symbolic.
Right now, it seems that line is drawn arbitrarily.
As an afterthought - we know that God, as we believe it, doesn't intervene every little time we do something, or all these people wouldn't be committing murder, raping little girls, using the priesthood to sodomize little boys, etc. So maybe that's the puzzle or the beginning of it, why isn't God intervening? Seems to be an age old question that no one really has the answer for.
If this story is supposed to be symbolic and is not to be take literally, then my question is, where does one draw the line between what parts of the Bible are historical and what parts are metaphoric or symbolic.
"He could not have told the bears to slaughter the people/children."
"...I doubt you'd have the ability to command two wild and untrained bears to maul a crowd to death and leave you alone."
"Remember Occam's Razor? Often the simplest answer is the correct one."
This story (Elisha and the bears) actually happened. However, the idiomatic expressions should not be taken literally.
There is NO evidence that Elisha could NOT cause the bears to attack the people. On the other hand, we DO know that Elisha was a prophet. And we know that prophets have access to KNOWLEDGE that others do not.
Quote:"Remember Occam's Razor? Often the simplest answer is the correct one."
I agree. For me, the simplest explanation is that Elisha had knowledge that we don't have. No miracle need be involved at all.
"His 'privilege' was the ability to summon God to perform miracles for him."
Acheick wrote:As an afterthought - we know that God, as we believe it, doesn't intervene every little time we do something, or all these people wouldn't be committing murder, raping little girls, using the priesthood to sodomize little boys, etc. So maybe that's the puzzle or the beginning of it, why isn't God intervening? Seems to be an age old question that no one really has the answer for.
Not quite. Millions of people have found an acceptable answer for it. It's just one that's not readily accepted or considered plausible by most believers.
That simple answer would be that God doesn't intervene, because there is no God.
God is a concept -- a concept that billions of people have accepted as a reality simply because it has been ever present since their birth. It cannot be proved nor disproved. It cannot be scientifically studied and analyzed nor can it be discounted as irrelavent.
Religion is simply what you get when people anthropomorphize that concept.
it's sometimes arbitrary and sometimes its scientific.
Personally, I think it takes more faith to not believe in a creator.
Acheick wrote:it's sometimes arbitrary and sometimes its scientific.
There is zero science involved with interpreting the Bible or drawing any "lines" therein. Leave science out of it, for goodness sake. We have enough trouble explaining real phenomena; we don't need to throw faerie tales into the mix.
Acheick wrote:Personally, I think it takes more faith to not believe in a creator.
It takes the same amount of "faith" to not believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster . . . at least on my part.
Pay attention. You misunderstand what I said about science and the scriptures.
We just disagree on what we have faith about, that's all.
I believe in a creator, I have never, ever not believed.
Personally, I think it takes more faith to not believe in a creator.