Islam is fundamentally incoherent.

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Bonaventurian
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 02:39 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Ok, then I have Luigi to my left, Bowser to my right, and Mario stars above my head right now. I also drink from Peach's wine glass (secret item) which I believe has her kindness imbued. I read from the Mario Allstars manual, and it tells me nothing about this scenario is inconsistent.

Well, it looks like I've reached the same level of possibility you have.


All of these things are possible. I think you are missing the point of what I am saying. I am not arguing that Catholicism is right. I am only arguing that Catholicism is possible. Muslims, however, don't even believe in a possible system. The concurrent truth of all of their beliefs are impossible. Islam is not only wrong, but it is wrong necessarily.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 02:44 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian wrote:
All of these things are possible. I think you are missing the point of what I am saying. I am not arguing that Catholicism is right. I am only arguing that Catholicism is possible. Muslims, however, don't even believe in a possible system. The concurrent truth of all of their beliefs are impossible. Islam is not only wrong, but it is wrong necessarily.


No, the things I said are not possible. LOL.

And, so, this is why you're staying with Catholicism... because it's possibly right, through whatever logic you've constructed?
Quote:

1. Muslims believe that God is one both in substance and in hypostasis (person).

2. Muslims believe that God is perfect. This is to say, no greater God can be conceived.

3. It is apparent both to the Muslim and to me from the creation of this, the best possible world, that God desires to express His Goodness.* Further, even if it were not empirically obvious, it should nonetheless be obvious to the Reason (see Plato's Timaeus).
They believe God is "One", in all substance (1) They believe everything (All substance, God) is perfect, and there's nothing greater than this substance, this "Oneness" (2). This culmination of substance is the best possible world with which God (All substance, One) can express His Goodness (3).

Where's the severe contradiction?
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 02:46 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian wrote:
All of these things are possible. I think you are missing the point of what I am saying. I am not arguing that Catholicism is right. I am only arguing that Catholicism is possible. Muslims, however, don't even believe in a possible system. The concurrent truth of all of their beliefs are impossible. Islam is not only wrong, but it is wrong necessarily.
You are both wrong , you have no substance, no evidence, no logical reason to believe yours is the only true faith.
 
Bonaventurian
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 02:48 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
No, they are not possible! LOL.


I am using "possible" in the sense of "logical possibility." "There exists a possible world in which this occurs." In other words, "there is no contradiction in positing these things." There's some possible world in which the Mario Bros storyline occurs actually. How do I know this? Because we play the video games. It's represented actually. Insofar as the storylines don't contradict each other, and insofar as there are no plot holes...well...yeah. The Mario Bro. world is a possible world.

Quote:
They believe God is "One", in all substance (1) They believe everything (All substance, God) is perfect, and there's nothing greater than this substance, this Oneness (2). This culmination of substance is the best possible world with which God (All substance, One) can express His Goodness (3).

Where's the severe contradiction?


That isn't how I formulated it. I said:

1. God is one in substance in hypostasis and in substance.
2. God is perfect (no greater God can be conceived).
3. God desires to communicate His Goodness, and this is clear from the creation of this, the best possible world.

The contradiction lies in what must be deduced from 2 and 3. Read the entire OP.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 03:03 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Quote:
I am using "possible" in the sense of "logical possibility." "There exists a possible world in which this occurs." In other words, "there is no contradiction in positing these things." There's some possible world in which the Mario Bros storyline occurs actually. How do I know this? Because we play the video games. It's represented actually. Insofar as the storylines don't contradict each other, and insofar as there are no plot holes...well...yeah. The Mario Bro. world is a possible world.
South Park is contradictory every episode Kenny dies, since he's back to life the following episode. South Park is not possible, regardless of the consistency of it's storyline -- it's a damn cartoon. Why you think South Park is any more or less "logically possible" because of the consistency of it's storyline, appears to have something to do with this odd worldview concept you have.

You're assuming that every other possible universe would share our logicality; it wouldn't necessarily. QM tells us that there is uncertainty, confusion, in much of what you assume will be necessarily logical. If, using the Multiverse theory, a universe was made that was in total chaos, everything would and wouldn't be possible. It's just a mess, and why you're basing your spiritual journey on wordplay, inconclusive quantum theories (and yes, I am referring to your "There exists a possible world in which this occurs), and the discrediting of other religions, I haven't a clue.

And let's remember: I'm playing cards with a unicorn, a dog, and two squirrels whilst sipping on loose green tea. According to you, I have the same level of possibility as you do. Let's see who gets to heaven first, shall we?
 
Bonaventurian
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 03:06 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
South Park is contradictory every episode Kenny dies, since he's back to life the following episode. South Park is not possible, regardless of the consistency of it's storyline -- it's a damn cartoon. Why you think South Park is any more or less "logically possible" because it's storyline is inconsistent, appears to have something to do with this odd worldview concept you have.


As far as I can see, each particular eposide is logically possible, albeit the concurrent instantiation of all of the episodes in a single world is logically impossible.

Quote:
You're assuming that every other possible universe would share our logicality;


The laws of inference are necessary truths; they are true in every possible world.

Quote:
QM


Is a system of contingent truths.

Quote:
I have the same level of possibility you do...


Let's say you do. Muslims don't even have that much.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 03:09 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian wrote:
As far as I can see, each particular eposide is logically possible, albeit the concurrent instantiation of all of the episodes in a single world is logically impossible.


Then couldn't some practices of Islam be logically possible (just as certain episodes of South Park)?
Quote:

The laws of inference are necessary truths; they are true in every possible world.
I'm not convinced of this, but to be honest, I'm not that versed in QM, or much of the newly formed theories of new age science. I thought total chaos would prevent this from being true.
 
Bonaventurian
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 03:23 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Then couldn't some practices of Islam be logically possible (just as certain episodes of South Park)?


The hallmark of a religion is that it is a system of beliefs which must concurrently be believed.

Quote:
I'm not convinced of this, but to be honest, I'm not that versed in QM, or much of the newly formed theories of new age science. I thought total chaos would prevent this from being true.


What part of "contingent" are you not understanding? There are possible worlds in which Quantum Mechanics aren't in effect. There is no possible world in which Quantum Mechanics both are and are not in effect at the same time.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 03:38 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Quote:
The hallmark of a religion is that it is a system of beliefs which must concurrently be believed.
But that doesn't answer my question...

Don't pick out justification of religion here. If we're speaking purely logically, "religion" and "show" are simply placeholders. The fact is, depending on the consciousness rationalizing, one could be Islam, and not be inconsistent.

I've read and reread your OP, and it appears as nothing more than an interpretation. I could interpret those three points (as I already did) in a way that wouldn't appear inconsistent. Religious beliefs are not logical proofs, and it's silly to evaluate them as such. Every point you noted is completely open for interpretation.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 04:20 pm
@Bonaventurian,
What's repeatedly being missed by Bonaventurian is that many Muslims embrace the contradiction of Allah being at once the merciful and the terrible.

Which seems more consistent to me than the idea of an omnipotent and benevolent God who allows suffering.

Islam is to surrender to a god whose design is not necessarily one with human comfort in mind.
 
thysin
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 04:24 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Belief: confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof

Faith: belief that is not based on proof

Why bother?
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 07:12 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian;52559 wrote:
3. God desires to communicate His Goodness, and this is clear from the creation of this, the best possible world.
Prove that point 3, namely what "God desires to communicate", is an actual assertion made in Islam.
 
neapolitan
 
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 12:44 am
@thysin,
Honestly I know very little of Islam, I have watched a PBS special once. There are a few things I am confused about Islam.

Muslims must have faith in all Prophets and Messengers. Somehow Moses (Judahism) and Jesus (Christianity) are made retroactively muslim. Do they follow Moses or Jesus? Do they observe the Mosaic Law? Do muslims have Sabbath on Saturday? How much of Christian teaching do they have? Do muslims have a baptism?

"There is no god, but allah." That seems to me to be fundamentally incoherent, why would someone state "There is no god" but really mean "there is a god," because if you start with the premise that "there is no god" and then make an exception with allah, how can you somehow make that mean "allah is god"? maybe something is lost in translation?
 
thysin
 
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 12:52 am
@Bonaventurian,
I believe Jesus and Moses are prophets that the muslims also agree with to an extent, but they don't believe Jesus is the son of God. The statement that there is no God but Allah is saying 'Allah is the only God'.

edit: Instead of saying they agree with them to an extent I should say rather that they think Christians and Jews distorted what is supposed to be learned by him.
 
neapolitan
 
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 12:58 am
@thysin,
thysin wrote:
I believe Jesus and Moses are prophets that the muslims also agree with to an extent, but they don't believe Jesus is the son of God. The statement that there is no God but Allah is saying 'Allah is the only God'.


Then why doesn't it translate as "allah is god?" It still doesn't make sense, why would anyone say emphatically "there is no god."

Another problem: Christianity has Jesus as The Son of God (God-Man) and Islam has Jesus as a man, they are two contradictory statement. You can have two opposing statement that can both be true one has to be true and the other has to be false.
 
thysin
 
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 01:01 am
@Bonaventurian,
That's just the way it works with translating languages and trying to keep it in the same form...for example Salaam Alaykum means Peace be upon you and the response Alaykum Salaam is Upon you be peace. It just sounds cooler too, don't ya think? Hehe

That's why Christians and Muslims don't get along, or one of the reasons. (Speaking generally!)
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 03:22 am
@neapolitan,
neapolitan wrote:
Then why doesn't it translate as "allah is god?" It still doesn't make sense, why would anyone say emphatically "there is no god."
Because Islam was a monotheism formulated within a polytheistic society it was important (in the eyes of the early Muslims) to stress that all the other gods believed in by the Meccans were false gods apart from the head of the gods - Allah.

This problem (if you see it as such) was pretty much the same faced by Moses, as the early Hebrews believed in many gods - hence the first commandment.
neapolitan wrote:
Another problem: Christianity has Jesus as The Son of God (God-Man) and Islam has Jesus as a man, they are two contradictory statement. You can have two opposing statement that can both be true one has to be true and the other has to be false.

I'm not sure why this is actually a problem, Muslims think Christians are mistaken on the issue, and vice versa. It isn't an internal inconsistency within Islam - they see Jesus as one of a long line of (wholly human) prophets including Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, and ending with Mohammed.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 05:29 am
@Dave Allen,
As an atheist agnostic this academic theology is like shadow boxing.As an observer it becomes a bit boring after a while listening to one false premise battling it out with another.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 06:00 am
@Bonaventurian,
God forbid you actually learn anything about the world's second largest and fastest growing faith.

There are plenty on threads on this forum that don't interest me - so I ignore them.

Nothing is more boring than complaining about being bored.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 07:07 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen wrote:
God forbid you actually learn anything about the world's second largest and fastest growing faith.

There are plenty on threads on this forum that don't interest me - so I ignore them.

Nothing is more boring than complaining about being bored.
I have sufficient knowledge about islam and catholicism to know these debates are not about sharing knowledge or advancing understanding .They are just one set of fundamentalist posturing about one set of unsubstantiated scripture against another.Ide love for it to be about sound reasoning and go beyond shadow boxing but sadly thats all that happens..
 
 

 
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