Two Important Things about Islam

@peter74,

peter74;88382 wrote:

I have many Muslim friends, and two of the things that stick out when I'm with them are very important

First, Ramadan: a sacred month in the Islamic calendar, where muslims fast from dawn to dusk, reduce the number of social activities they engage in, and pray devotely to Muhammad, peace be upon him. Being mindful of this month is very important as sensitivies flare, especially with their older family.

Second, Relationships: Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women, as it allowable in the Koran for men to convert their women and children into the Muslim flock. However, muslim women cannot marry non-muslim men. This man would need to convert by professing his belief in several tenets of Islamic faith or forget the whole relationship.

These things I picked up, if there are any Islamic scholars who can correct me on this, would be much appeciated.

hi peter-
first, muslims pray only to Allah.

second, the general consensus in islamic thought is that the husband is the head of the family-and a woman naturally tends to follow the customs of her husband. technically speaking, a muslim may marry a christian woman or a jewish woman (anyone correct me if i am mistaken) but no other religion, no agnostic, no atheist. it is not necessary for her to convert, but recommended and she usually will unless there is a problem with her faith teaching that jesus is a god, because that has to be abandoned if one wants to enter the fold of islam.

the reason a muslim woman is forbidden to marry a non-muslim man is that she most likely will abandon her religion in favor of her husband. i am sure most western women will disagree with this, but men have a stronger source of will and do not need the support of their wives to continue their devotional practices, whereas women will not be so independent (or stubborn if you like that term better) that they can follow through with their commitment to their religion when their husband has no relation to it. i agree this is the tendency of men and women and i dont mind.

so for me, as a muslim woman i may not marry anyone but a muslim man. therefore i do not entertain the thoughts of marrying someone who is not muslim, because my religion is important to me. i feel it will sustain me all the rest of my life while any man i love may leave me (deliberately or through sickness or death). also it is not actually suggested that a man convert to islam so he can marry a woman he loves, which is unlikely he would do any more than what is observed by outsiders. in his heart he would not have any love for islam, and it is also unlikely he would have fallen in love with a muslim woman unless she had encouraged him. this problem should not arise, under ideal circumstances.

if you have any further questions, feel free to ask, i am happy to help.

@salima,

salima;88469 wrote:

technically speaking, a muslim may marry a christian woman or a jewish woman (anyone correct me if i am mistaken) but no other religion, no agnostic, no atheist.

While it's probably irrelevant in modern times: would marriage to a Zoroastrian be permissible?

@peter74,

I really don't know much about Islam and I realize that I probably should learn more so I can actually discus it rationally. All I know is that I do not support sharia law and those who do I think need to re-evaluate themselves. I think the system is barbaric and backwards and far to harsh of a system to be of any good. We have grown up as humans to allow such childish reactions to be considered "just".

I also feel that women are not treated as equals despite all the propaganda that tries to say that women want to be treated the way they are treated in Islamic countries. When a leader says things like, "There should only be one eye hole in the hijab because seeing both eyes of a woman might lead to her being raped." as a reasonable thing is just plain silly. Why is it always the woman's fault if a man rapes her? That is how they portray it and that to me makes them sound uneducated.

See, I need to learn more otherwise I am bound to just talk in ignorance. But as far as that stuff goes yeah to me it just seems like bigotry to me.

@Krumple,

Krumple;88501 wrote:

I really don't know much about Islam and I realize that I probably should learn more so I can actually discus it rationally. All I know is that I do not support sharia law and those who do I think need to re-evaluate themselves. I think the system is barbaric and backwards and far to harsh of a system to be of any good. We have grown up as humans to allow such childish reactions to be considered "just".

I also feel that women are not treated as equals despite all the propaganda that tries to say that women want to be treated the way they are treated in Islamic countries. When a leader says things like, "There should only be one eye hole in the hijab because seeing both eyes of a woman might lead to her being raped." as a reasonable thing is just plain silly. Why is it always the woman's fault if a man rapes her? That is how they portray it and that to me makes them sound uneducated.

See, I need to learn more otherwise I am bound to just talk in ignorance. But as far as that stuff goes yeah to me it just seems like bigotry to me.

Its interesting on this of all forums, you openly say you have little to no knowledge about something, yet already formulated a strong feeling about it.

Perhaps it would be better to say:

" I have little to no knowledge about Islam, however I am concerned by certain muslims actions etc etc"

Also your other points raised are all factually incorrect, so require no further comment.

@ahmedjbh,

ahmedjbh;88528 wrote:

" I have little to no knowledge about Islam, however I am concerned by certain muslims actions etc etc"

I agree. Either study the subject or ask a question. There is no harm in asking.

Rich

@ahmedjbh,

ahmedjbh;88528 wrote:

Its interesting on this of all forums, you openly say you have little to no knowledge about something, yet already formulated a strong feeling about it.

So I am not allowed an opinion? That is absurd.

ahmedjbh;88528 wrote:

Also your other points raised are all factually incorrect, so require no further comment.

Why can't you state what the incorrect facts are please? It's pretty easy to tell someone they are wrong and leave it at that. Fairly weak of a rebuttal to if you can even consider it one.

@salima,

salima;88469 wrote:

hi peter-
first, muslims pray only to Allah.

second, the general consensus in islamic thought is that the husband is the head of the family-and a woman naturally tends to follow the customs of her husband. technically speaking, a muslim may marry a christian woman or a jewish woman (anyone correct me if i am mistaken) but no other religion, no agnostic, no atheist. it is not necessary for her to convert, but recommended and she usually will unless there is a problem with her faith teaching that jesus is a god, because that has to be abandoned if one wants to enter the fold of islam.

the reason a muslim woman is forbidden to marry a non-muslim man is that she most likely will abandon her religion in favor of her husband. i am sure most western women will disagree with this, but men have a stronger source of will and do not need the support of their wives to continue their devotional practices, whereas women will not be so independent (or stubborn if you like that term better) that they can follow through with their commitment to their religion when their husband has no relation to it. i agree this is the tendency of men and women and i dont mind.

so for me, as a muslim woman i may not marry anyone but a muslim man. therefore i do not entertain the thoughts of marrying someone who is not muslim, because my religion is important to me. i feel it will sustain me all the rest of my life while any man i love may leave me (deliberately or through sickness or death). also it is not actually suggested that a man convert to islam so he can marry a woman he loves, which is unlikely he would do any more than what is observed by outsiders. in his heart he would not have any love for islam, and it is also unlikely he would have fallen in love with a muslim woman unless she had encouraged him. this problem should not arise, under ideal circumstances.

if you have any further questions, feel free to ask, i am happy to help.

This would mean that muslim women ought to decline any date offers or get togethers from non-muslim men right?

@Krumple,

Krumple;88531 wrote:

So I am not allowed an opinion? That is absurd.

Why can't you state what the incorrect facts are please? It's pretty easy to tell someone they are wrong and leave it at that. Fairly weak of a rebuttal to if you can even consider it one.

Please my friend, i wish no offence to you.

I do not mean you cant have an opinion. What I am saying is that your approach to making decisions appears flawed. I am only suggesting that it makes more sense to learn about something, and then form an opinion.

As for your other comments, you provide and unrefferenced comment about the covering of women. Firstly there is NO Islamic basis for covering the face, so its a bit of a non starter.

As for rape, I think again there seems to be some confusion, if a women is raped, the rapist is the criminal.

The issue is though that some scholars say, if women are not dressed modestly and basically looks like a prostitute, what do they expect when they get treated like one. I dont necassarily agree with that, but I think thats what you are reffering to, however in law, I dont think thats going to hold up as a good defence.

@Krumple,

Krumple;88501 wrote:

I really don't know much about Islam and I realize that I probably should learn more so I can actually discus it rationally. All I know is that I do not support sharia law and those who do I think need to re-evaluate themselves. I think the system is barbaric and backwards and far to harsh of a system to be of any good. We have grown up as humans to allow such childish reactions to be considered "just".

I also feel that women are not treated as equals despite all the propaganda that tries to say that women want to be treated the way they are treated in Islamic countries. When a leader says things like, "There should only be one eye hole in the hijab because seeing both eyes of a woman might lead to her being raped." as a reasonable thing is just plain silly. Why is it always the woman's fault if a man rapes her? That is how they portray it and that to me makes them sound uneducated.

See, I need to learn more otherwise I am bound to just talk in ignorance. But as far as that stuff goes yeah to me it just seems like bigotry to me.

there are a lot of different points in your post that need clarification.

first of all, the highest law in islam is the qur'an. following that would be hadiths (recorded statements of the prophet, MUhammad pbuh. shariah law is based upon this, but man-made. there are four major schools of shariah law, though i havent studied them closely to know exactly where they differ. anything i am telling you is only basic knowledge.

the qur'an spoke more to conduct of the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) and it is difficult to exactly draw a line between what is expected of the total population of women in islam. i doubt if you are really interested in specifics, but i could quote you what i have in the qur'an and what is said. basically i take it to mean that modesty is the idea. it can and is being widely interpreted. it is not mentioned in conjunction with rape. it points out the fact that a woman who behaves modestly is making a statement towards men and they will be saved the embarrassment of trying to make any inappropriate contact where they will be rejected.

certainly there are leaders who make such statements as the one you quote. all religions can be carried to extremes, as i am sure you are aware of the christian extremists in america. when you hear about the taliban shooting men dead because their pants or their beard are the wrong length, you are not learning anything about islam-you are learning about madness for one thing, and power and oppression being used against the ignorant among other things, which easily go hand in hand in countries where there are weaker governments and poverty. the taliban is more of a tribal influence and takes the rule by force.

shariah law does have severe penalties for crimes, but it is assumed that the guilty will be properly identified. in the case of a woman accused of infidelity, there must be four witnesses. four eyewitnesses! if there are no witnesses at all, and her husband is bringing forth the accusation, he may be believed if he takes five oaths to the effect. however, if the woman in question says he is lying and takes the same five oaths, her word will be taken above his. is there something in here that you find oppressive to women?

if a nation has adopted shariah law, that is their chosen juridprudence system. we have been exposed to various studies and philosophies that the average peron in those countries probably has not been. perhaps they will choose to modify or temper their penalties in time. in the meantime, usa still has capital punishment which is no less barbaric regardless of the crime it is meant to punish.

every reference in the qur'an to the retaliatory judaic eye for an eye concept of justice is followed by a phrase noting that if restraint is used, that will be better. the purpose of introducing this kind of justice was that in the time the qur'an was revealed, entire families would be killed to retaliate against the crime of a single individual. following that entire tribes would go to war, and it was never-ending.

it is quite possible that shariah law and democracy can co-exist, and i believe it does in at least one country. however i see a problem with using shariah law along with other law systems for various segments of the population of the same country.

this is a very long subject. let me know if there is anything else you are interested to know, krumple.

@peter74,

On a side note there was just a new story about a young girl who supposedly converted to Christianity and fled to Florida to live with some christian family she met over the net. Her family she says are devout Muslim and she feared if she was forced to return home that her parents would harm her. There is going to be a hearing on what should be the fate of the girl since there has been abuse case in the past dealing with her parents that might rule in favor of the christian family keeping the young girl.

Prior to this there was another story about a girl who was killed by her Muslim father for refusing to wear her hijab.

Fundamental or not it shows the lack of respect and expresses that the religion is more important than the individual. I feel that sharia law will only be implemented into western countries because it can be purchased by wealthy Muslims lobbying law makers and not because it is some great system.

As far as the modesty thing goes, it still doesn't make any sense to me. Why should modesty matter?

@Krumple,

Krumple;88554 wrote:

On a side note there was just a new story about a young girl who supposedly converted to Christianity and fled to Florida to live with some christian family she met over the net. Her family she says are devout Muslim and she feared if she was forced to return home that her parents would harm her. There is going to be a hearing on what should be the fate of the girl since there has been abuse case in the past dealing with her parents that might rule in favor of the christian family keeping the young girl.

Prior to this there was another story about a girl who was killed by her Muslim father for refusing to wear her hijab.

Fundamental or not it shows the lack of respect and expresses that the religion is more important than the individual. I feel that sharia law will only be implemented into western countries because it can be purchased by wealthy Muslims lobbying law makers and not because it is some great system.

As far as the modesty thing goes, it still doesn't make any sense to me. Why should modesty matter?

yes, the stories that make the news are the exception rather than the rule, and you can see how western ideals are also misrepresented by the media stories. i am not saying the press is doing something wrong, but you have to realize what you are reading is not an example of islam being practiced correctly.

islam believes the religion is more important than the individual, there is no contesting that-that means a muslim's religion is more important to him than he is to himself, not that his religion is more important than other individuals. you are familiar with abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son on the altar? here the judaic/ibrahimic/islamic stories coincide. this is a horrific parable to our senses, and it is so often wrongly interpreted.

there is nowhere in islam that would condone a man killing his daughter for not wearing a hijab. there is nothing i am aware of that would condone parents hurting their children for leaving islam. i am aware that it is suggested contact be broken, however.

i dont believe shariah law can be imported into countries that are not islamic nations due to the fact that the penalties are not the same. civil law can coincide, for instance divorce/marriage/inheritance laws, but not criminal law. in the uk they are saying you can choose whether or not to accept a different law system. does this mean a thief will say 'i want to be tried in a shariah court' when he knows he will get his hand cut off if he is found guilty? who gets to choose which court the trial takes place in, the accused or the victim?

we need to get our act together, all humanity, in treating convicted people to be rehabilitated rather than punished. the object of law and penalty should be to help citizens who have become a disturbance and danger to society to learn how to take a part in that society and make a meaningful contribution to it. condemn shariah if you want, but there has not yet been any proper system of law in the world that i know.

as for modesty, i dont know how much things have changed since i was a young girl, so excuse me if i am out of touch! but when i was young, there was a code of behavior in america that would set apart those girls who were more likely to be compliant to the wishes of the young boys and those who were not. it included not only clothes but manner of speech and all behavior. modesty would be found in a girl who would not want to be physically involved with any and every young boy.

today, even though there is no stigma or judgment involved in society as to a girl's reputation or morals, less of a double standard as it were, it is still a good way of demonstrating exactly where preferences lie. modesty is a clue to character at best. i agree that it can be deceptive, but if a woman is modest she will most likely not be promiscuous. it will ward of unwanted contact if the male is at all aware.

islam does condemn social contact between men and women outside of marriage or family, and that is difficult for western people to imagine having come so far away from such a concept.

---------- Post added 09-07-2009 at 06:10 AM ----------

Didymos Thomas;88494 wrote:

While it's probably irrelevant in modern times: would marriage to a Zoroastrian be permissible?

it isnt irrelevant, the zoroastrian community exists today. in india they are known as parsi. but they are forbidden to marry anyone outside their religion, which is probably one of the reasons they are becoming extinct. i am pretty sure conversion is not accepted, either. and no, a muslim would not be permitted to marry a zoroastrian.

---------- Post added 09-07-2009 at 06:14 AM ----------

peter74;88532 wrote:

This would mean that muslim women ought to decline any date offers or get togethers from non-muslim men right?

absolutely. unless she is willing to give up her religion, and that is very difficult for a muslim who has been raised in a family that is practicing as opposed to simply born muslim.

here in india there are muslims who do not pray or fast or read the qur'an. but even among them is the understanding that a muslim woman is to marry a muslim man. in fact, the other communities may also get involved and take vigilante action. her family may disown her for life, and in other countries and societies where the family is still in high regard that can be too much to expect of anyone.

@salima,

salima;88560 wrote:

today, even though there is no stigma or judgment involved in society as to a girl's reputation or morals, less of a double standard as it were, it is still a good way of demonstrating exactly where preferences lie. modesty is a clue to character at best. i agree that it can be deceptive, but if a woman is modest she will most likely not be promiscuous. it will ward of unwanted contact if the male is at all aware.

See that is the thing, I don't see anything wrong with being promiscuous. If that is what they want to do, they should be allowed to. Just like I might not agree with religious views, I respect that people practice or hold those views. I see it as a vast contradiction that we allow for religious views but then they get turned back upon society as a form of standard way of behavior that should be acceptable. So it IS a double standard.

@peter74,

Krumble just imagine for a minute what would happen to society, and the planet even, if everyone was allowed to do what ever they wanted.

Does this freedom extend to the likes of Bin Laden and his wacky ideas?

Without these bounds society would collapse, simply as that, infact we can see it happening infront of us, go to any city in the uk and look what happens around 1am in the bars etc. People urinating on themselves, vomiting on other people, people cheating on their boyfriend/girl friend etc, fighting, vandalism.

I dont think those are lofty ideals that one should promote as a way society should be.

@peter74,

Promiscuity Krumple, is an everchanging effect within a person. A young adolescent boy would welcome it should he be condemned by lust but ask the same of the boy when he is a father of a young girl who wishes to hop out of the house dressed to infect. He doesn't hold his tongue,saying well I had my youth, I guess my daughter deserves the same. Heck, between drugs, rape, peer group pressure and complete unashamed involvement in sex, the youth today have little chance to avoid the ramifications. Pregnacy, alienation, insults, abuse to the body and the mind, sadly it is moreso directed at girls, who are shall I say it, inferior when matched physically to men. A girl cannot generally prevent being overwhelmed by a man. So I will ask you to answer this question, would you allow your fifteen year old daughter to dress lets say, like a slut and attend a party of older gents where there will be alcohol, most likely drugs, then allow her to walk home through a neighbourhood infected with deviots of the sexual nature.

That was not a scenario, it was the real world. Maybe there is room for modesty in your thoughts, if not pray I hope you look after your daughter and your son. The double standard you think exists in the religion of Islam, exists amongst the parents in concern.

@Krumple,

Krumple;88569 wrote:

See that is the thing, I don't see anything wrong with being promiscuous. If that is what they want to do, they should be allowed to. Just like I might not agree with religious views, I respect that people practice or hold those views. I see it as a vast contradiction that we allow for religious views but then they get turned back upon society as a form of standard way of behavior that should be acceptable. So it IS a double standard.

at this point in your life you may not see anything wrong with being promiscuous, but in time you may come to see the issues. what i once thought was moral i no longer see as being moral. so ma y people told me 'this is wrong' 'that is wrong' and i had to find out for myself, the long way. so fifty years later i have a way different view on ethics. and truly, would you see anything wrong with your mother being promiscuous? or just some people?

certainly sometimes it takes doing wrong to be able to see what the ramifications are. but religion has tried to set certain standards for society which are pretty basic in the hopes of helping people to avoid making mistakes.. unfortunately other issues, among them politics and administration, have gotten in the way of most religious organizations. yeah, maybe ALL religious organizations.

a double standard means two rules for different people made by the same judge. for instance, in america while i was growing up it was ok for a boy to be promiscuous but not for a girl-that was how society reacted. they condemned the girl and applauded the boy. what you are referring to is that a government may be tolerant towards people practicing their own religion, but those people who practice religion often want to impose their standards on everyone else. i dont know what that process is called, but you are right-it is certainly something that is not to be admired. the rules of islam apply to muslims only. the qur'an doesnt tell women who are not muslim to be modest. it presents itself as a message for all people, but does not claim to be setting down rules for all people.

@salima,

Being a muslim does not mean you will be good or bad and the same goes for non muslms, so the fact that you choose not to include the taliban as examples of islam also means you cant choose silly teenage girls as examples of western ideology. Just see the proportion of young muslim men in british prisons and then tell me if faith can be a good influence.
We can only understand any society by its treatment of its individuals and islamic states have no great history of being just. For example why is it you need four women to every mans witness, in court, to establish your innocents ?

@Krumple,

Krumple;88554 wrote:

As far as the modesty thing goes, it still doesn't make any sense to me. Why should modesty matter?

Modesty is a central theme in Christianity as well, particularly in monastic orders but also in the extrapolation of the Virgin Mary as the model for women. Why do you think that modesty is something particular to Islam?

---------- Post added 09-07-2009 at 10:29 AM ----------

xris;88699 wrote:

We can only understand any society by its treatment of its individuals and islamic states have no great history of being just.

Umayyad Spain was famous for its legal system and legal scholarship, and Spain under the Inquisition (which immediately followed the elimination of the Muslim state) is one of history's most famous examples of unjust legal treatment.

What say you to this?

@Aedes,

Aedes;88707 wrote:

Modesty is a central theme in Christianity as well, particularly in monastic orders but also in the extrapolation of the Virgin Mary as the model for women. Why do you think that modesty is something particular to Islam?

[/COLOR]
Because Islam is the topic being discussed.

Aedes;88707 wrote:

Umayyad Spain was famous for its legal system and legal scholarship, and Spain under the Inquisition (which immediately followed the elimination of the Muslim state) is one of history's most famous examples of unjust legal treatment.

What say you to this?

Well I don't know much about it but my over all point was treatment of the guilty. I think we have grown up enough to realize that harsh punishments like cutting off hands and feet is overly harsh. I realize that there are some states in the US that still support capitol punishment, but that doesn't mean that I or all other Americans support it. I don't agree with killing the killer. It does not work as a deterrent for crime.

@Krumple,

Considering the non muslim population of spain was classified as slaves through conquest ,i dont think that represent a good example of islamic rule. Visit spain and see the physical challenges the slaves encountered.
If not a slave, your position in Muslim society as a christian or jew was one of a second class citizen.
They may have not been as vengeful as the christians who recaptured spain but im no lover of christianity either.

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