What do you feel would have happened?

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7skullz
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 09:07 pm
First off, forgive major spelling and incorrect word errors, as I am attempting to type this up on my iPod Touch.

Okay, now here is the question that has been puzzling me (especially as a non-religious person): how do you feel that Christianity would be different had Judas Iscariot not kissed Jesus to point him out to the Romans?

Personally, I feel that a lot of religious wars caused by Christianity (the Crusades come to mind) would have been prevented had he not been martyred.

But the question remains: what do you think would be different?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 10:02 pm
@7skullz,
7skullz;152155 wrote:
First off, forgive major spelling and incorrect word errors, as I am attempting to type this up on my iPod Touch.

Okay, now here is the question that has been puzzling me (especially as a non-religious person): how do you feel that Christianity would be different had Judas Iscariot not kissed Jesus to point him out to the Romans?

Personally, I feel that a lot of religious wars caused by Christianity (the Crusades come to mind) would have been prevented had he not been martyred.

But the question remains: what do you think would be different?


I suspect that some similar religion would have come along. And eventually one with an incarnation myth. We may have had worse wars. Hard to say. Resources and population growth..the greed of those who can start wars without having to fight them. And also this: in times with worse nutrition and medicine, a death on the battlefield was a clean out, that payed well (in some cases) compared to the alternative. Just thoughts.Smile
 
7skullz
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 10:48 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;152161 wrote:
I suspect that some similar religion would have come along. And eventually one with an incarnation myth. We may have had worse wars. Hard to say. Resources and population growth..the greed of those who can start wars without having to fight them. And also this: in times with worse nutrition and medicine, a death on the battlefield was a clean out, that payed well (in some cases) compared to the alternative. Just thoughts.Smile


Reconstructo, you have a good point there.

And thoughts are perfectly welcome, I was asking for thoughts, and I'm glad I got a response so soon.
 
KaseiJin
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 02:36 am
@7skullz,
I'm thinking that it is very likely that no Juda ever kissed any Yeshua in the circumstances of which you are presenting. In that case, the general Christianity that became, is what would have happened anyway we look at it.

Now, if we were to ask what 'Christianity' might have come to look like in the event that Constatine had not (holding the general history to be correct) won that battle there, under that 'cross in the sky' (with diamonds....hee, hee, hee....sorry), we might have to do some hard thinking. It might have been stamped out by the yet to remain Roman empire after that.
 
7skullz
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 09:29 am
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;152186 wrote:
I'm thinking that it is very likely that no Juda ever kissed any Yeshua in the circumstances of which you are presenting. In that case, the general Christianity that became, is what would have happened anyway we look at it.


I believe that you may have misunderstood me.

Here is the link to the Wiki page on Judas Iscariot: Judas Iscariot
 
KaseiJin
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 04:55 pm
@7skullz,
Actually, 7skullz, I am quite certain that I understood the content of the question as well as the story line from which it had come. Therefore, I can only take it that you didn't quite catch what I had written. (although it is my fault for missing the 's' in Judas)
 
onetwopi
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 07:15 pm
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;152186 wrote:
I'm thinking that it is very likely that no Juda ever kissed any Yeshua in the circumstances of which you are presenting. In that case, the general Christianity that became, is what would have happened anyway we look at it.

Now, if we were to ask what 'Christianity' might have come to look like in the event that Constatine had not (holding the general history to be correct) won that battle there, under that 'cross in the sky' (with diamonds....hee, hee, hee....sorry), we might have to do some hard thinking. It might have been stamped out by the yet to remain Roman empire after that.


7skullz,
I think KaseiJin's point here is that the story/myth of Judas betraying Jesus with a kiss is likely to be just that: a myth. As with most of the stories in the Bible, they are not meant to be understood literally, as a news report. The Bible is an amazing piece of literature; to take it as factual in nature would take away from the true meaning of the story, IMO.

I guess the point to your question, though, is, what if Jesus had not been crucified and had lived on for some time as a prophet and teacher and died a natural death at the age of 87?

That is a very interesting question. Of course, Christianity would not be what it is without the resurrection story and the crucifixion story. It is central to the meaning of Christianity itself: you can be "resurrected" from your old life, full of sin and death, and pass into a "resurrected life" in Christ. So, I think my answer would be that Jesus would have fundamentally changed a branch of Judaism (which Christianity fundamentally is anyway) in a profound way, but that branch of Judaism would probably be more closely related to the core of Judaism than we know it as today. That's just my $.02.
 
7skullz
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 09:08 pm
@7skullz,
KaseiJin, my apologies. I do believe I had missed the context of your writing. And onetwopi, I thank you for rephrasing my question.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 09:24 pm
@7skullz,
7skullz;152155 wrote:
First off, forgive major spelling and incorrect word errors, as I am attempting to type this up on my iPod Touch.

Okay, now here is the question that has been puzzling me (especially as a non-religious person): how do you feel that Christianity would be different had Judas Iscariot not kissed Jesus to point him out to the Romans?

Personally, I feel that a lot of religious wars caused by Christianity (the Crusades come to mind) would have been prevented had he not been martyred.

But the question remains: what do you think would be different?
- our world would most likely still be flat.
- our thinking and technology would be slower
- no WWII giving us jetengine
- no high pressure aluminum for jetplanes
- no computers
- poor medical knowledge

- the middle east would most likely be more advanced than us
 
onetwopi
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 11:37 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;152607 wrote:
- our world would most likely still be flat.
- our thinking and technology would be slower
- no WWII giving us jetengine
- no high pressure aluminum for jetplanes
- no computers
- poor medical knowledge

- the middle east would most likely be more advanced than us


I'm guessing that what you are getting at here is -- Christianity led to America and America led to airplanes and computers ??

Somehow I'm not making the leap with you from Jesus to high pressure aluminium.

Cheers!
 
wayne
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 11:59 pm
@7skullz,
7skullz;152155 wrote:
First off, forgive major spelling and incorrect word errors, as I am attempting to type this up on my iPod Touch.

Okay, now here is the question that has been puzzling me (especially as a non-religious person): how do you feel that Christianity would be different had Judas Iscariot not kissed Jesus to point him out to the Romans?

Personally, I feel that a lot of religious wars caused by Christianity (the Crusades come to mind) would have been prevented had he not been martyred.

But the question remains: what do you think would be different?


I think christian values have been responsible for far more good than bad in the world. Was it not christian values for which we stood against Hitler?
I do not necessarily follow the christian faith ,but I think our present world could be much worse off without it.

Imagine sacrificing virgins or something similar, some form of religion would surely have arisen to fill the gap had christianity not occured.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 12:15 am
@wayne,
wayne;152652 wrote:
I think christian values have been responsible for far more good than bad in the world. Was it not christian values for which we stood against Hitler?
I do not necessarily follow the christian faith ,but I think our present world could be much worse off without it.

Imagine sacrificing virgins or something similar, some form of religion would surely have arisen to fill the gap had christianity not occured.
? ..no Hitler gave us much more than anyone in WW2. I forgot to mention in my previous post, that Hitler gave us the car for all people, not only the ritch.
Christian values gave us nothing, in average Hitler had much more civil soldiers, who was much more noble on the battlefield.
 
wayne
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 01:04 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;152656 wrote:
? ..no Hitler gave us much more than anyone in WW2. I forgot to mention in my previous post, that Hitler gave us the car for all people, not only the ritch.
Christian values gave us nothing, in average Hitler had much more civil soldiers, who was much more noble on the battlefield.


Actually ,it was Henry Ford who gave us the car for all people.

The noble soldiers of germany were not hitler's soldiers, but career military men like Rommel, who Hitler forced to take his own life.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 07:36 am
@wayne,
wayne;152664 wrote:
Actually ,it was Henry Ford who gave us the car for all people.

The noble soldiers of germany were not hitler's soldiers, but career military men like Rommel, who Hitler forced to take his own life.
His cheap cars was intended for the middle class.

The standing army had specific order of not raping and looting, there was far less of such counts than any other contempoary army to my knowledge, only the SS would not adhere such orders.
 
Rubix Cube
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 08:36 am
@HexHammer,
Firstly, I don't believe that the United States committed itself to World War II on the grounds of "Christian values" but rather because of political reasons. Secondly Hitler did commission the first affordable automobile for the masses, you may have heard of it, it's called the Volkswagen. But regardless, that's the not the focal point of this thread.

I feel that if Jesus had never been martyred then the doctrine of Christianity that we know to day would be vastly different. It is suspected that in his life Jesus traveled east into Asia and learned the ways of Buddhism, integrating Buddhist ideas into his own teachings. I feel that had Jesus not been martyred he would have steered Christianity in the direction of a reflective and pacifistic faith (like traditional Buddhism), rather than the self determinant entity we recognize as Christianity today. That's my speculation at any rate.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 08:43 am
@7skullz,
USA only enterd the war because of Pearl Habour, had nothing to do with any hippie values.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 10:42 am
@7skullz,
7skullz;152155 wrote:
First off, forgive major spelling and incorrect word errors, as I am attempting to type this up on my iPod Touch.

Okay, now here is the question that has been puzzling me (especially as a non-religious person): how do you feel that Christianity would be different had Judas Iscariot not kissed Jesus to point him out to the Romans?

Personally, I feel that a lot of religious wars caused by Christianity (the Crusades come to mind) would have been prevented had he not been martyred.

But the question remains: what do you think would be different?

They would have imprisoned and killed everyone.
If Jesus had not been identified and killed then Christianity would not have survived.
I never understood the hate for Judas he was possibly the most important disciple there was?
 
7skullz
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 06:15 pm
@7skullz,
Well, I only learned of Judas through a song called The Judas Complex and some funny google errors leading to wikipedia research.

Thus my statement about it puzzling me, a stout atheist.

Then, of course, I believe that without the whole "HE DIED FOR YOUR SINS" thing, Christianity and Catholicism would be highly pacifistic.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 06:22 pm
@7skullz,
7skullz;153011 wrote:
a stout atheist.

Then, of course, I believe that without the whole "HE DIED FOR YOUR SINS" thing, Christianity and Catholicism would be highly pacifistic.

What is a 'stout athiest'?Smile

What people miss about he died for our sins is that it means the last one was already done.
Sin was supposed to have finishe don that day forever.
But didn't how curious,
does this mean Jesus had no magic?
Unless sin really is over?
 
7skullz
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 06:47 pm
@7skullz,
Well, really, Jesus had to die in order to fulfill the Jewish profecy (sp?) in order to become messiah, which really means "saviour of mankind" in Hebrew, roughly translated.

Then, there wouldn't be any Islamic extremists trying to kill America, and there really wouldn't be any Christianity, because Jesus would have died a Jew and Paulian Christianity would never have existed.

So, in this one instance, if the Jewish higher ups hadn't been so "butthurt" about Jesus, then the world would probably be a better place. :/ Jus' sayin'
 
 

 
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