Can a lie be the truth?

@Victor Eremita,

In order for a lie to be a lie one must know that the message is false, and also must be actively trying to deceive another party. Now if one actively believes a lie that would be a form of self-deception, thus, negating any relationship to truth.

@Arjen,

Arjen wrote:

Adding to Dan's post I'd like to get Immanuel Kant's thoughts into it. He is of the opinion that it is not the physical act which defines something, but the intent with which the act was made. In that sense it is not important that the boy dropped the stolen item at the door; he was of the intent to steal and therefore a thief.

The same applies to the denial of action X. The memory of something is not important; it is the intent with which the action was made. Therefore Y is not true, but X is. Y is merely the testament of the lies the actor tells himself.

Hope this helps.

I disagree. The tactile nature and pleasure of an object and the utter perversion of natural occurance that property rights are would lead me to believe that one could take an object without ever considering that it should 'belong' to oneself (be stolen by one).

Secondly Kant infers that the 'truth' resides inside the conscious mind - that is clearly wrong - founded on the basis that the 'truth' is a totally inept determination of reality, which is quite obviously NEVER what it appears to be.

@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus wrote:

In order for a lie to be a lie one must know that the message is false, and also must be actively trying to deceive another party. Now if one actively believes a lie that would be a form of self-deception, thus, negating any relationship to truth.

Hey all, back after a stint of confinement at RMC, and i would have to agree with this statement. There is no doubt that you had to decieve yourself to belive your own lie is true- so it is still a lie. I like to use an example- If you know the earth is round, and yet somehow convince the entire world otherwise (through falsity)- it is still a lie aslong as you knew you were telling a lie. The world is still round, and you (at one point) believed this and preached otherwise.

@Victor Eremita,

Victor Eremita wrote:

The great philosopher George Costanza once said, "It's not a lie, if you believe it."

Let's say you do "x", and you later tell your family and friends and anyone else, "y".

No one saw you do "x", no cameras were at you, no dogs or cats sniffed you doing "x", no evidence at all that can contradict your "y" story.

Soon enough though, you begin to believe your "y" story; you have pushed the memory of "x" to the farthest reaches of your brain; you consciously remember "y" as what actually happened for the rest of your life.

You die, and with your death, the last remnants of "x" disappear forever.

Is "y" the truth?

.No .No matter what the truth is the truth in the essence of time. If ones mind is that deep into distorting the facts it could be come what happened but no the truth. :listening:

@Victor Eremita,

Victor Eremita wrote:

The great philosopher George Costanza once said, "It's not a lie, if you believe it."

Let's say you do "x", and you later tell your family and friends and anyone else, "y".

No one saw you do "x", no cameras were at you, no dogs or cats sniffed you doing "x", no evidence at all that can contradict your "y" story.

Soon enough though, you begin to believe your "y" story; you have pushed the memory of "x" to the farthest reaches of your brain; you consciously remember "y" as what actually happened for the rest of your life.

You die, and with your death, the last remnants of "x" disappear forever.

Is "y" the truth?

What is and isn't a lie is based in belief. What is and isn't the truth is not dependent on belief.

So George is correct, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the truth.

@Victor Eremita,

A lie is something that is false. It does not exist. It is not real. It is not true in except in the mind that created that lie. Then the truth becomes about the nature of that person rather than the words - a relfection of the person who created the lie. The action or event that the lie is about does not exist.

@Victor Eremita,

In what way does truth exist, if not conceptually? I would argue that the intelligible structure of the world as we experience it is the same as our system of concepts concerning it. I also would argue that concepts do exist, that errors do exist, and that error is relative.

@Victor Eremita,

There's a saying "in every lie there's a grain of truth".

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Can a lie be the truth?

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