Attaining truth or avoiding error?

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Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 10:08 am
This stems partially from a discussion I had a while back with Pyrrho in another thread and then later I surprisingly read more on this same point in William James' essay, The Will to Believe.

Also, I wasn't sure which category this fell under so I just stuck it here in General. Feel free to move this to the appropriate sub-forum at your discretion.

The question is what ought to be the higher duty: Knowing truth or avoiding error?

For the sake of this discussion I am going to re-post what I stated in the other thread as well as post William James' answer to this question and since I am of the opinion that knowing truth ought to be the higher goal, I will leave it to those who wish it to argue for the other.

And just for a matter of clarity I would like to point out that while these two pursuits are interrelated I think the difference is quite vast in the overall outlook toward life. One leaves one vulnerable to being wrong while the other leaves one standing on the sideline never actually being a part of something.

My Comments on the matter:
Quote:
Next, comes the idea of what one would rather get out of life. Is is more important to you to hold true beliefs or not hold a false beliefs? For me, it is more important to hold true beliefs. All this really means is that, at times, I am more willing to go out on a limb with my beliefs in an attempt to hold something that is true at the risk of being wrong, while others(and I believe Clifford would certainly fall in this category) will reserve judgment on a belief in general as to not risk possibly being wrong. The trade off is that they will miss out on holding true beliefs due to their doubt.

I think he[anyone who believes that avoiding false beliefs is more important] undervalues the implications of the difference between gaining as many true beliefs as possible vs. gaining as few false beliefs as possible. It seems that he would hold a similar view to the man who thinks it would be better to be blind because one may certainly view many bad things while not realizing the overwhelming amount of great things that will overshadow the bad. I do think it is somewhat funny and even somewhat hypocritical that he thinks he is justified in calling someone a lier for a miracle claim while risking the possibility that he is wrong. It would seem that a more logical response would be to simply reserve judgment entirely.

One can obviously always look at life from the sideline never forming an opinion, never asking a girl out, never getting involved for fear of being rejected, for fear of being wrong, for fear of failure, but such a life, to me, is no life at all.

Einstein did not worry that prior to 1921(or whatever year...I forget exactly) the theory of relativity was thought of as nonsense and neither did many others throughout history. In fact I would argue that the people who have achieved the most important discoveries and inventions throughout history, were those men and woman who formed a belief when no one else felt they were justified. A justified belief is only important on a subjective scale. Believing something is justified is about what the amount of evidence necessary for you to personally feel your opinion is reasonable; nothing more.


As I added in my previous post, which you may not have saw, I actually think that Mr. Clifford would maintain it is better to be wrong while claiming that something is false than it is to be right while claiming something is true with no corroboration from others. And I don't see his claim itself to be justifiable.
William James':
Quote:
One more point, small but important, and our preliminaries are done. There are two ways of looking at our duty in the matter of opinion,-ways entirely different, and yet ways about whose difference the theory of knowledge seems hitherto to have shown very little concern. We must know the truth; and we must avoid error,-these are our first and great commandments as would-be knowers; but they are not two ways of stating an identical commandment, they are two separable laws. Although it may indeed happen that when we believe the truth A, we escape as an incidental consequence from believing the falsehood B, it hardly ever happens that by merely disbelieving B we necessarily believe A. We may in escaping B fall into believing other falsehoods, C or D, just as bad as B; or we may escape B by not believing anything at all, not even A.
Believe truth! Shun error!-these, we see, are two materially different laws; and by choosing between them we may end by coloring differently our whole intellectual life. We may regard the chase for truth as paramount, and the avoidance of error as secondary; or we may, on the other hand, treat the avoidance of error as more imperative, and let truth take its chance. Clifford, in the instructive passage which I have quoted, exhorts us to the latter course. Believe nothing, he tells us, keep your mind in suspense forever, rather than by closing it on insufficient evidence incur the awful risk of believing lies. You, on the other hand, may think that the risk of being in error is a very small matter when compared with the blessings of real knowledge, and be ready to be duped many times in your investigation rather than postpone indefinitely the chance of guessing true. I myself find it impossible to go with Clifford. We must remember that these feelings of our duty about either truth or error are in any case only expressions of our passional life. Biologically considered, our minds are as ready to grind out falsehood as veracity, and he who says, "Better go without belief forever than believe a lie!" merely shows his own preponderant private horror of becoming a dupe. He may be critical of many of his desires and fears, but this fear he slavishly obeys. He cannot imagine any one questioning its binding force. For my own part, I have also a horror of being duped; but I can believe that worse things than being duped may happen to a man in this world: so Clifford's exhortation has to my ears a thoroughly fantastic sound. It is like a general informing his soldiers that it is better to keep out of battle forever than to risk a single wound. Not so are victories either over enemies or over nature gained. Our errors are surely not such awfully solemn things. In a world where we are so certain to incur them in spite of all our caution, a certain lightness of heart seems healthier than this excessive nervousness on their behalf. At any rate, it seems the fittest thing for the empiricist philosopher.
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 02:33 pm
@Amperage,
Neither is exactly correct... We know truth to avoid error; and that much is true, with the ultimate goal of not injuring others, since justice is the highest virtue upon which society is based and peace is founded, and injustice is the greatest vice upon which all pain, unendurable agony and death, are raised...

When a philosopher asks: what is the Good, and what is Virtue; it is not to know these as absolutes or hypotheticals; but to have that certain art and practical knowledge with which to measure imponderables...Nations of people are great eggs holding all promise that once broken soon rot... No one can put them together again once the love is lost in a society, so people go their own ways and soon become enemies where once they were brothers...Justice is the magic which binds all to a common purpose of mutual survival, and that is the goal of truth, which is the knowledge of error..
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 02:35 pm
@Fido,
If the attainment of truth is impossible then knowing whether or not we err is also impossible. How can one guard against the unknown?
 
Amperage
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 02:45 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;172205 wrote:
If the attainment of truth is impossible then knowing whether or not we err is also impossible. How can one guard against the unknown?
I would say one cannot in the absolute sense. All the more reason for one to "take a chance" so to speak rather than merely sit on the sideline.

I think the whole idea, at least in the context of gaining as few false beliefs as possible, is one based solely on fear. And for me, a doctrine based on fear just doesn't resonate.

I consider myself a devout Christian but I feel the same way about those "Christians" who try to "scare" people into their beliefs. One ought not be a christian out of some fear, be it real or not, but out of love, hope, faith, and an experience of the truth they find through it.

---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 03:49 PM ----------

Fido;172203 wrote:
Neither is exactly correct... We know truth to avoid error; and that much is true
While I agree to an extent I think James pointed out quite eloquently why these things are less related than one may think.

That being, while believing the truth of A, it's true that we avoid the falsity of B, the opposite is, more often than not, not the case. Merely disbelieving B does not mean we are left(at least in most cases) with believing the truth of A, since it may be the case that we fall into believing C, or D or even not believing anything at all.

It really comes down to almost a leap of faith in a sense. A willingness to put oneself out there at the risk of being wrong but while renaming true to ones self rather than suspend judgment altogether for fear of being wrong or failure.

---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 03:55 PM ----------

Anyhow, I thought it might be interesting to "poll" the forum and see which pursuit our members found more the noble: Gaining as many true beliefs as possible or acquiring a few false beliefs as possible.
 
wayne
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 03:17 pm
@Amperage,
There seems to be a rather tricky balance involved in this. I find it interesting that this seems to speak toward an entire philosophy of life. Those who fear making a mistake never really seem to realize their potential.
On the other hand, one must be careful of the risks one takes in order to prevent harm to others.
On the intellectual level, our ego can prevent us from properly exploring the truth. When we fear for our place amoung men, we are often too willing to accept the status quo. Conversely, too little attention to general opinion and our status may render us ineffective.

On a personal note, I am maybe a bit too willing to think outloud, although I think the risk is quite often well worth it.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 04:11 pm
@wayne,
wayne;172218 wrote:
I find it interesting that this seems to speak toward an entire philosophy of life.
I think so too


---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 03:55 PM ----------


For the sake of being fair and balanced I will post A.J. Burger's response to this question in which he espouses that avoiding false beliefs ought to take precedence. I will directly quote his material and then probably add some comments:

Quote:
There are two comments we may make about this. First, James is quite confused about what "real knowledge" is. It is not merely guessing correctly, but necessarily involves reason and evidence. Imagine, for example, there were six people, who, by faith, each formed a different belief about the outcome of a single fair roll of a fair die, so that each person believed that the outcome would be a different number. Excluding the possibility of the die not landing flat, we can be certain that five of the six would be wrong and one would be correct regarding the outcome. However, all of them, before the event, were equally unjustified in their belief. A person who had real knowledge of such a situation would believe that each of the six possible outcomes would be equally likely. To believe otherwise is to show a lack of understanding and knowledge of the situation. Curiously, James apparently believed that a belief based on a random guess, but that turns out to be true, is an example of "real knowledge," despite the fact that such a belief really demonstrates ignorance or extreme foolishness. (One may, of course, bet on an outcome without believing in advance that that outcome will necessarily occur; this should always be kept in mind, for although beliefs affect actions, beliefs are different from actions.) The person with the true belief in the outcome of the die roll, far from having real knowledge, is really demonstrating the opposite. The person with real knowledge in this situation, and many others of a like nature, necessarily suspends judgment-which is something James seems loathe to do, despite it being often the most sensible course. James instead preferred to commit the logical fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantium (also known as "appeal to ignorance"); because it had not been proven to James' satisfaction that certain propositions that he wished to believe are false, he concluded that they are true (as believing a statement is regarding that statement as true). Because he does not know the answer to questions that are important to him, he makes a bigoted guess and calls it "real knowledge" if his guess turns out to be true. The second comment we may make about this is that the two "commandments," "We must know the truth; and we must avoid error," are not
I will not address his second point which is that he believes the difference between gaining as many true beliefs as possible and gaining as few false beliefs is quite small because I think I've already addressed that and despite his argument about the matter, I think the difference is indeed vast and carries over into essentially our entire lives.

In terms of his first point, I firstly think he misconstrues the intent of James' argument to the point he is essentially attacking a strawman. I don't, and I don't believe James did either, think we are talking about believing just any old thing simply for the sake of wanting to believe something rather than nothing. On the contrary we are talking about one of two things. Believing in something which cannot be proven nor disprove prior to such as the belief Buster Douglas had in himself to be able to knock out Mike Tyson in his prime. Or something with which we have earnestly examined, and searched out and have and have become convinced of regardless of how others feel for example the men who have thoroughly studied quantum mechanics and yet have conflicting interpretations; each has examined the data and tested their theories and therefore they believe in the truth of what they are saying. Obviously they could be always be proven incorrect but the mere belief in the absence of conflicting data, doesn't seem to be something which is too absurd.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 05:54 pm
@Amperage,
The thought that I keep having in regards to truth, as in 'the truth about life', is that it is indeed something that needs to be attained, as you have said This implies that most are without it, or that by default it is not something we have a grasp of. Now I think this is already a controversial view and something that not many are really willing to contemplate.

Most of the debates concerning truth on the Forum really revolve around whether this or that proposition is true. So this invariably becomes a debate about what are the rules for true propositions, and so on. Therefore this is an analysis of correspondence theory.

Now Qualia made this observation in another (but thematically related) thread in regards to the basic issues of correspondence theory from which I will quote some excerpts:

qualia;171692 wrote:
Okay, if I go back to my introductory philosophy books, one type of definition of truth which often crops up is some kind of correspondence theory. That is, between understanding and the states of affairs, that some notion of truth relies upon the correctness of my claims about things. This perspective more often gives rise to a whole set of subject object-predicate claims.

If I now turn to my chapter on Kant, I am informed that he asked himself, '
How do things come to be present to us as objects of experience in the first place? (from which empirical truth and false claims can be derived)'

He argued... that there [are] more than likely
a priori conditions in which objects come to be presented to us, a priori

And I guess this is what he meant by
conditions located in the essential structure of our being (whether these are genetically derived I have no idea). transcendental truth. It is these structures (these 'truths' using Kantian terminology) which precede and makes possible any claim about objects of our experience......

....Now, Heidegger argues that these things are not just present to us as mere objects of consciousness to which we then ascribe our meanings after the fact of their existence, but are already some-thing for us, they are already at hand, they have a context, meaning, intelligibility. They just wouldn't be there in the first place unless there were other things in existence. ....

The 'problem' with everyday philosophy, according to Heidegger, is that it is overtly prejudiced to mere propositional truths and overlooks the more fundamental condition in which many things, the totality of equipment and tools and gadgets, for example, can come to be some-thing with significance in the first place
.


Now already if you stand back from the complexities just focus on the broad outlines, the factor which is implicit in this description is self-knowledge. In other words, the route to understanding the truth involves insight into our own conscious faculties rather than just the rules of grammar and how to create valid syllogism. That is why I think it is important
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 07:43 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;172208 wrote:
One ought not be a christian out of some fear, be it real or not, but out of love, hope, faith, and an experience of the truth they find through it.

Beautifully said. For me the Christian tradition is potent, especially when it focuses on love. I see a strong connection between "God as Love" and Plato's Form of the Good, which he compares to a Sun that lights and unifies all other forms.

Perhaps the highest Truth is not trapped in a concept.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 09:50 pm
@Reconstructo,
Is there perhaps a Gestalt approach? The figure of truth emerges from the ground of falsehood.

The attainer of truth throws out nothing and sees the chalice one moment and the faces the next depending on the focus. The avoider of error throws out the chalice or throws out the faces.

http://www.cres.org/star/RubinGestalt.gif
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 10:16 pm
@Deckard,
Deckard;172358 wrote:
Is there perhaps a Gestalt approach? The figure of truth emerges from the ground of falsehood.

The attainer of truth throws out nothing and sees the chalice one moment and the faces the next depending on the focus. The avoider of error throws out the chalice or throws out the faces.

http://www.cres.org/star/RubinGestalt.gif

I strongly relate to this. Yes. Keep them both. And isn't this duality in unity and two faces who meet at the one chalice, drink the same drink, are the same drink? Unity-in-diversity. Beyond good and evil and truth and falsity not by annihilating their separateness but by seeing also and not exclusively their fusion?
 
Deckard
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 10:22 pm
@Reconstructo,
Come to think of it James is sometimes listed among the forefathers of Gestalt Psychology.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 10:28 pm
@Amperage,
I think it is also very much part of the tradition of phenomenology.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 11:05 pm
@jeeprs,
I'm tempted to throw Parmenides into the mix. The first two paths. The one toward what is and the other toward what is not.

(But that is possibly a misreading of Parmenides...who can tell for sure?)
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 11:17 pm
@Amperage,
Parmenides brings Heraclitus to my mind. You can see the river as unity or as flux. It's both. And is this yet another unity?
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 01:09 pm
@Amperage,
[QUOTE-
---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 03:49 PM ----------

While I agree to an extent I think James pointed out quite eloquently why these things are less related than one may think.

That being, while believing the truth of A, it's true that we avoid the falsity of B, the opposite is, more often than not, not the case. Merely disbelieving B does not mean we are left(at least in most cases) with believing the truth of A, since it may be the case that we fall into believing C, or D or even not believing anything at all.

It really comes down to almost a leap of faith in a sense. A willingness to put oneself out there at the risk of being wrong but while renaming true to ones self rather than suspend judgment altogether for fear of being wrong or failure.

-[/QUOTE]
In framing the question as a logical problem James misses the point that truth is a moral form applied to an absolute, or near absolute of survival... It is wrong to believe there is ever a hypothetical truth, or a hypothetical justice... Because those are moral forms they are always worked out on the spot by those concerned with the question... Of physical matters, truth assumes less the character of a moral form since it can be verified to an extent... But the question as posed by James, of a choice, as every choice is a moral choice to be correct/true, or not wrong/in error presumes of the truth that it is an exercise rather than a necessity upon which life depends... There are times the truth is purely a moral choice, and that is to say: a political consideration... There are times, given the moral milieu of the individual, that no matter what the consequences that people will hold to their vision of truth and suffer their fates...Yet, for the philosopher it is always a mistake to consider the truth which is an abstraction of reality, a form, as a reality itself... To do so is part of phenomenology to be sure, but in a practical sense it is the second intention...
 
 

 
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