What is a Prophet?

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reasoning logic
 
Reply Thu 13 May, 2010 04:39 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;163882 wrote:
What else is a universal manner other than pontificating, please describe further 'universal manner'.

---------- Post added 05-13-2010 at 04:48 PM ----------


Could part of 'universal truth' be a contradiction.
What is it about a contradiction that must be false?
Cannot ever two things exist even though they are at opposite ends of the spectrum of truth?
Perhaps universal truth is a fluid, perhaps there are times in this universe where one thing is true for one part of it and untrue for another part of it.
Perhaps when talking of universes we can think of the multi-verse concept.
Surly each of those universes could be ruled by different fundamentals that the other, so 'universally' things can still be true for some part of reality and yet in other part oppose this truth but still have its own.
It happens in people also perhaps that one man's universal truth is another man's universal delusion. If not for the simple fact some people cant be as smart or aware as others.
Different universes different set of fundamental ideals.

---------- Post added 05-13-2010 at 05:03 PM ----------


Damn straight, be thy design and thy causality thy prophecy.
Be thy drawer and thy causer thy prophet.
Many scientists are prophets, they theorise they predict they have absolutely no basis to make these claims sometimes but some will still be proven true fortuitous and fateful.
Yes I would say some scientists are definitely prophets but all prophets are definitely scientists.
It does also mean that most of the time a prophet must be the one to not only paint the fates but often-times to prove them.




Like I have said you have alot to offer us. Smile
 
MMP2506
 
Reply Thu 13 May, 2010 07:24 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;163882 wrote:
What else is a universal manner other than pontificating, please describe further 'universal manner'.

Could part of 'universal truth' be a contradiction.
What is it about a contradiction that must be false?
Cannot ever two things exist even though they are at opposite ends of the spectrum of truth?
Perhaps universal truth is a fluid, perhaps there are times in this universe where one thing is true for one part of it and untrue for another part of it.
Perhaps when talking of universes we can think of the multi-verse concept.
Surly each of those universes could be ruled by different fundamentals that the other, so 'universally' things can still be true for some part of reality and yet in other part oppose this truth but still have its own.
It happens in people also perhaps that one man's universal truth is another man's universal delusion. If not for the simple fact some people cant be as smart or aware as others.
Different universes different set of fundamental ideals.


Any string of words can be a contradiction depending upon what they are being used to express. The Logos is not merely the words at face value, but the essence of what those words are trying to convey. People can at times twist words around to use them how they see fit, however, what those words mean depend upon the entire context in which they are used.

This is why I feel so many prophets stressed the importance of the spoken word over the written word. When you rewrite the same words over an over they become static, and the essence is lost over the many translations. Spoken word, on the other hand, can remain alive in those who understand its essence, and can actually evolve.

I think you are exactly right about the fluidity of Truth, and it reminds me of the fountain of truth metaphor in the Bible. That is how I've always read that part anyway.

Even when you realize that all truths can be seen as a delusion, you have a choice to make. You must choose which of these delusions are the most functional, the most rational. I do believe in universal rationality, and I feel this rationality is the basis of universal Truth. I can choose to deny that 2+2=4, but I'd be doing so at the cost claiming to back something that would make my existence fully irrational. So for the purpose of functionality, I adhere to its Truth.

The importance of the concept of the One, God, Tao, or Uni-verse for that matter, it that there is a most rational/connective way to exist, and the Truth that I'm speaking of is any attempt to try to convey this idea.
 
MessageOfLife
 
Reply Thu 13 May, 2010 09:19 pm
@MMP2506,
A prophet is just someone who reveals truth to others that has been revealed to them by any means other than by physical evidence.

For example, a prophet could be someone who has the ability to tell what the future holds, or be able to read and reveal people's thoughts, or even someone who has received some truth from God.

A prophet is proved/disproved by the physical presentation of evident for or against their "prediction". If a prophet says gold will rain from the sky on 5/30/2010 and on 5/30/2010 no gold rains from the sky, then the prophet is actually a false prophet.
 
MMP2506
 
Reply Thu 13 May, 2010 10:08 pm
@MessageOfLife,
MessageOfLife;164062 wrote:

A prophet is proved/disproved by the physical presentation of evident for or against their "prediction". If a prophet says gold will rain from the sky on 5/30/2010 and on 5/30/2010 no gold rains from the sky, then the prophet is actually a false prophet.


Or he was misinterpreted?
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 07:07 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;163148 wrote:
I have read it but it was a while ago now. So I cant remember what was said about poets, please refresh me.

Why not yourself start a reading group of this in His forum.
I would be glad to read this again with someone.

---------- Post added 05-12-2010 at 12:28 AM ----------


Please why only a man?
Luke 2:36 There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage,




Please keep in mind that you are reading this out of context. If you would click on the link in the post that I gave you would have a more complete idea of what he was referring to.

Quote:
I went to the poets; tragic, dithyrambic, and all sorts. And there, I said to myself, you will be detected; now you will find out that you are more ignorant than they are. Accordingly, I took them some of the most elaborate passages in their own writings, and asked what was the meaning of them - thinking that they would teach me something. Will you believe me? I am almost ashamed to speak of this, but still I must say that there is hardly a person present who would not have talked better about their poetry than they did themselves. That showed me in an instant that not by wisdom do poets write poetry, but by a sort of genius and inspiration; they are like diviners or soothsayers who also say many fine things, but do not understand the meaning of them. And the poets appeared to me to be much in the same case; and I further observed that upon the strength of their poetry they believed themselves to be the wisest of men in other things in which they were not wise:detective:
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 09:51 pm
@jack phil,
jack;162618 wrote:
This is probably the wrong place for this, but...

Revelations 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

1 The world is everything that is the case
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

:surrender:


First, this is an interesting approach. It opens with the totality, not yet defined in its particulars. Right?

---------- Post added 05-15-2010 at 10:55 PM ----------

jack;162618 wrote:

2 What is the case- the fact- is the existence of atomic facts
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 The logical picture of the facts is the thought
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
:surrender:


The atoms of the human word, it's intelligible structure: facts, the simplest facts.
The light revealing/creating beings is language. Do you see it this way? I note that God creates light by means of language.

---------- Post added 05-15-2010 at 11:01 PM ----------

jack;162618 wrote:

4 The thought is the significant proposition
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 Propositions are truth functions of elementary propositions (elementary propositions are truth functions of themselves)
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 The general form of truth-function is [p-bar, e-bar, N(e-bar)]
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

:surrender:


Do you associate darkness with negation? Or with the part of human experience that is real but not conceptualized/lingual?

The propositions are molecules of atomic facts? Holons? Russian dolls? What do you make of the waters?

As far as silence goes, I'm sure their are many possible interpretations. What is yours? I venture this one. One must be silent, not should. But this would be a tautology, right? Is he just emphasizing? Or do you interpret this as an ethical suggestion? That one should avoid certain kinds of sentences?

I feel that Wittgenstein had the personality of a prophet in many ways. What do you think? And how would you connect this to prophecy?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 10:07 pm
@MMP2506,
MMP2506;164043 wrote:

Even when you realize that all truths can be seen as a delusion, you have a choice to make. You must choose which of these delusions are the most functional, the most rational. I do believe in universal rationality, and I feel this rationality is the basis of universal Truth. I can choose to deny that 2+2=4, but I'd be doing so at the cost claiming to back something that would make my existence fully irrational. So for the purpose of functionality, I adhere to its Truth.

The importance of the concept of the One, God, Tao, or Uni-verse for that matter, it that there is a most rational/connective way to exist, and the Truth that I'm speaking of is any attempt to try to convey this idea.

I agree with all of this. Radical skepticism is a toy, not a genuine option.

I mention the 2 + 2 =4 to emphasize that there are certain intuitions/axioms that sanity is founded upon. Wittgenstein writes brilliantly on math, by the way. The concept of unity is just there. And it's the same, in my opinion, as A = A, the concept of identity. Also the concept of negation is just there.

A certain amount of skepticism and irony is like a seasoning that keeps us human, protects us from fanaticism and cruelty perhaps. But too much is itself a strange sort of faith in faithlessness. Smile
 
jack phil
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 11:29 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;164800 wrote:
First, this is an interesting approach. It opens with the totality, not yet defined in its particulars. Right?


More or less; it opens with reality.

"The world of the happy is quite different from that of the unhappy."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein

Quote:
The atoms of the human word, it's intelligible structure: facts, the simplest facts.
The light revealing/creating beings is language. Do you see it this way? I note that God creates light by means of language
Yes, language; in the beginning was the word, and the word was God.

"To imagine a language is to imagine a form of life."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein

Quote:
Do you associate darkness with negation? Or with the part of human experience that is real but not conceptualized/lingual?
Tautology and contradiction. Isn't 5.101 a picture of heaven and hell?

"Hell isn't other people. Hell is yourself."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein

Quote:
The propositions are molecules of atomic facts? Holons? Russian dolls? What do you make of the waters?
That would be the tricky part I have difficulty speaking on(though not which I must be silent about, imo). W says the significant prop is the induction, the general prop the tautology, but I have yet to see what is the elementary prop. I think the placing of the two sets of lyrics next to each other is revealing of significant propositions.

"The problems are solved, not by giving new information, but by arranging what we have known since long."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein (Philosophical Investigations)

Quote:
As far as silence goes, I'm sure their are many possible interpretations. What is yours? I venture this one. One must be silent, not should. But this would be a tautology, right? Is he just emphasizing? Or do you interpret this as an ethical suggestion? That one should avoid certain kinds of sentences?
It is quite flexible; I wager putting the two together tells us something, yet again.

7 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
(8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.)

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: thereof one must be silent.

So...

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

"Don't for heaven's sake, be afraid of talking nonsense! But you must pay attention to your nonsense."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein

Quote:
I feel that Wittgenstein had the personality of a prophet in many ways. What do you think?
He lived a wonderful life.

"What can be shown, cannot be said."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein

Quote:
And how would you connect this to prophecy?
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


"I think one of the things you and I have to learn is that we have to live without the consolation of belonging to a Church....

Of one thing I am certain. The religion of the future will have to be extremely ascetic, and by that I don't mean just going without food and drink."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein


:whistling:
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 11:52 pm
@jack phil,
jack;164814 wrote:
More or less; it opens with reality.

"The world of the happy is quite different from that of the unhappy."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein


True that!----------------

---------- Post added 05-16-2010 at 12:54 AM ----------

jack;164814 wrote:

Yes, language; in the beginning was the word, and the word was God.

"To imagine a language is to imagine a form of life."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein

This is something we totally agree on. The philosopher is self-conscious logos? This is also in Hegel/Kojeve, but Witt's got such an efficient suggestive style. He's a cube root.

---------- Post added 05-16-2010 at 12:55 AM ----------

jack;164814 wrote:

Tautology and contradiction. Isn't 5.101 a picture of heaven and hell?

A beautiful metaphor.

---------- Post added 05-16-2010 at 12:57 AM ----------

jack;164814 wrote:

"Hell isn't other people. Hell is yourself."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein

Sublime, and indeed the sort of thing a prophet might say. I still hold that he can be described as a sort of negative theologian, but this is just one of many possible angles. Anyway, I agree with his quote.

---------- Post added 05-16-2010 at 01:00 AM ----------

jack;164814 wrote:

That would be the tricky part I have difficulty speaking on(though not which I must be silent about, imo). W says the significant prop is the induction, the general prop the tautology, but I have yet to see what is the elementary prop.

Where does identity fit in here? Related to tautology, and maybe one and the same. I'm not saying it's the elementary prop, but that identity is elemental in some way to human thought.

---------- Post added 05-16-2010 at 01:01 AM ----------

jack;164814 wrote:

"The problems are solved, not by giving new information, but by arranging what we have known since long."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein (Philosophical Investigations)


I like this too. Are we creating new information by arranging the old? This ties into Hegel's Begriff negating itself, becoming submerged in itself.

---------- Post added 05-16-2010 at 01:03 AM ----------

jack;164814 wrote:

It is quite flexible; I wager putting the two together tells us something, yet again.

I do love a good synthesis --

---------- Post added 05-16-2010 at 01:05 AM ----------

jack;164814 wrote:

"What can be shown, cannot be said."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein

There's something deep in this. I've got many theories, but I'll wait till we are on another thread.

---------- Post added 05-16-2010 at 01:06 AM ----------

jack;164814 wrote:

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

"Don't for heaven's sake, be afraid of talking nonsense! But you must pay attention to your nonsense."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein


I love both these lines. The Revelation is one of my favorite books. A nice blend. And both of these quotes are more than a little meaningful for me.

---------- Post added 05-16-2010 at 01:10 AM ----------

jack;164814 wrote:

"I think one of the things you and I have to learn is that we have to live without the consolation of belonging to a Church....

Of one thing I am certain. The religion of the future will have to be extremely ascetic, and by that I don't mean just going without food and drink."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein


How about this? Only idolaters think a church is made of bricks. The Bible is as good as any book I know, if read with scissors and a telescope.

I speculate that true religion is naturally ascetic. Who needs junk when you have....
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 06:47 pm
@MMP2506,
Hi all,

A prophet is a person who sees the need for change and tries to develop it.
The changes are always based on sound ideals - sound until applied, that is.
Hope and fear are the foundations of swaying the opinion of men. For FEAR truly is the key.
Unfortunately "One man's medicine, is another man's poison - Thus, the certainty of equal defence and offence, love and hate, peace and war.
Only when we face a common-foe will we ever stand united, and when that foe is defeated, we will complacently divide.

John Lennon's "Imagine" wow! There's a prophet for you. Assassinated! Aren't they all?

Thank you, and good tidings to you all.

Mark...

---------- Post added 05-17-2010 at 01:59 AM ----------

Pyrrho;163167 wrote:
But there is nothing terribly profound or inspired or brilliant about saying a few universal truths.


Hi Pyrrho,

Nice to meet you,
To those who are lost, beaten, forgotten, afraid, uneducated, confused or desperate, a few universal truths can have immense implications.

It is not always in the saying that matters, it is in the hearing.

Thank you, and journey well.

Mark...
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 17 May, 2010 01:07 pm
@sometime sun,
Think I'm a prophet, I have forseen many things.

- 22 years prior to 9/11 I foretold that survaliance would increase if a manmade disaster was great enough.

- that the CEO I worked for would fail in his newspaper expation in europe, his internet would fail, and he would fail, all came true.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 04:23 pm
@MMP2506,
MMP2506;164043 wrote:

This is why I feel so many prophets stressed the importance of the spoken word over the written word. When you rewrite the same words over an over they become static, and the essence is lost over the many translations. Spoken word, on the other hand, can remain alive in those who understand its essence, and can actually evolve.

Beautifully said. "The letter kills..the spirit gives life." Have you seen Blake's Book of Job? Job's family puts away their musical instruments, their living human relationships, and sit around reading. Disaster strikes.

---------- Post added 05-20-2010 at 05:24 PM ----------

MMP2506;164043 wrote:

The importance of the concept of the One, God, Tao, or Uni-verse for that matter, it that there is a most rational/connective way to exist, and the Truth that I'm speaking of is any attempt to try to convey this idea.

I like this. It does seem to be near the heart of the best kind of philosophy.
 
Repfixers
 
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2012 04:19 am
In religion, a prophet is an individual who is claimed to have been contacted by the supernatural or the divine, and to speak for them, serving as an intermediary with humanity, delivering this new found knowledge from the supernatural entity to other people. The message that the prophet conveys is called a prophecy.
 
 

 
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